Interview with Ange McCormack, ABC Triple J Hack

ANGE McCORMACK: Minister Bowen, thanks for speaking with me. I believe it's the first time we've had you on since you've been in Government on Triple J.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, it would be. Yeah, it's been a while. Happy to come on.

ANGE McCORMACK: Absolutely. Minister, we'll start with today's news. Electricity prices are set to go up again. Young people listening right now can barely get by as it is. How will you help young people cope with even more expensive bills?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah so I guess two things. First, as Shalailah mentioned in that report, obviously in December, we had to step in, and it's not something we did lightly or for fun. We stepped in and capped coal and gas prices, because that's what's leading to the energy price spikes, not only here, but around the world. And as bad as these increases are today, and they're big increases, they would have had a five in front of them if we hadn't done that. We would have been talking about increases around 50 percent. Then, in addition, as well, we announced that we'll do rebates. Now, they're still being negotiated through with the states, so they will be to take directly the pressure off. We recognise that capping the coal and gas prices gets us so far, but to those who need the most support, and many young people will be in this category, we'll do rebates direct to reduced power bills and they'll be in the budget, so there's more relief coming as well.

ANGE McCORMACK: Right. What does that relief look like, exactly? For young people, we say rebates, but this is a couple of hundred dollars every bill that they're looking at. How much relief are we going to see?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it's still being negotiated through with the states because what we said was, there's some various state schemes. We want to see us work with the states so that the relief is on top so we're not doubling up or repeating, we're actually getting increased relief. We want to see additional relief to people, so hence that takes a little while because you've got six states and two territories to work it through with. It'll be substantial. It's a substantial package of relief coming through to bills, but in terms of the exact design, it will change from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. That's why Jim Chalmers is negotiating through with each state treasurer. But clearly, it's sort of direct relief to actually make the bill lower via rebates.

ANGE McCORMACK: Something that's not going up, Minister, is welfare payments at the moment. Job Seeker and Youth Allowance are still the same. Is your Government looking at increasing those payments? Is that something we might see in the budget as well?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, whether it's in the budget or not, we do have a process to look at that. We do have a committee looking at all payments, and a Labor Government will review every payment at every opportunity. Not here to pretend that it's easy or automatic, because it isn't. But we also have a process, again, led by Jim Chalmers and in this case, Amanda Rishworth, the Social Services Minister, and others looking through the various options available to us, recognising that this is an issue that's been around for a long time and a lot of the payments haven't moved, particularly JobSeeker hasn't moved. So, yes, there is a process underway there.

ANGE McCORMACK: Well, when JobSeeker did move once, in a very recent memory, it was during COVID, it was an emergency and the Government was able to act quickly. There is a precedent for acting quickly. We know that that can happen if there's an emergency. And I guess for my listeners now who are struggling to go to the shops today and buy something for dinner, it feels like an emergency. I guess my question is just when will that sort of sense of urgency kick in for things like Youth Allowance payments, for example? We're talking about students and cost of living today as well.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I guess when you talk about a sense of urgency, that's what we are doing. In terms of again, on a related matter, the intervention we did in December, some people say I should have taken longer to work that through. That was really necessary to provide that relief. We will be seeing energy price rises of 50 percent, 5 0 percent. That's not something we did lightly and it's not something that we did slowly. We did it when it needed to be done, while doing it carefully, there's that balance to be struck, because if you get these things wrong, the implications are very significant. So I guess that sense of urgency is there. But again, I'm not here to pretend to you that everything can be dealt with immediately. I don't want to be too political on the show, but we’ve been out of office for ten years and you don't fix ten years worth of problems in ten months.

ANGE McCORMACK: Sure. You're listening to Hack on Triple J. I'm Ange McCormack speaking to Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen. Minister, I also want to ask about your climate change policy, this Safeguard Mechanism that you're hoping to push through very soon. For people listening, this is a policy that basically will mean the emissions from Australia's largest polluters will be reduced. But in the Senate, you need the Greens to support this bill. How are those negotiations going? Will you get this passed soon?

CHRIS BOWEN: So, look, this is really important, Ange. This is the equivalent of taking 205 million tonnes, or it is taking 205 million tonnes of carbon out of the air by 2030. That's the equivalent of two thirds of the cars on Australia's roads. So this is a big deal now. I'm used to this, really. When you're doing a big reform like this, I'd be very surprised if everybody came out on both sides, right and left, and said, this is all perfect, that world doesn't happen.

Now, we have disagreements with the Greens, but we also have areas of commonality where we can work together. This is one where I've said, well, let's work together. Obviously, I can't go into with you exactly what's being discussed in negotiations, but the negotiations are continuing, and in good faith. To answer your question, when we get it through, I just don't believe, I can't conceive that the Parliament that was elected last May, which is a progressive parliament, would knock back the opportunity to reduce emissions by 205 million tonnes, because some people would say, oh, we want it done differently. I'm not asking people to agree with me about exactly the way we're doing everything, but I am asking people to come together and say, right, this has to happen. These are the 215 biggest emitters in the country. We're not going to get emissions down unless they start getting emissions down. We're requiring 4.9 percent a year emissions reduction. From my point of view, that means you need to allow some flexibility. But I understand people have views about that, but ultimately, if it doesn't pass then nothing changes and emissions will keep going up.

ANGE McCORMACK: Well, I suppose the sticking point that we all know here is that the Greens, they're basically against this idea because you aren't committing to banning new oil or gas projects and climate scientists agree with that being a priority as well. They say we shouldn't open new coal or gas projects. I think a lot of my listeners right now will agree with that sentiment, and they've listened to the science for a long time. I guess why aren't you banning new fossil fuel projects as part of this policy? I think a lot of my listeners might not understand the thinking behind that.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, I understand. And look, I'd say two things. Firstly, this is a policy that's designed to get emissions down from everyone big, old, new, fossil fuels, industry. This isn't just about coal and gas, this is about aluminium, it's about steel making, it's about fertilisers, it's about the two airlines and it's about old and new. It's about facilities that have been there a long time and facilities that might be new. And so this isn't the mechanism to sort of just single out one particular area or one particular element.

Secondly, if this doesn't pass, as I said, there'll be no constraint on emissions from anyone, old or new. The other point is, Ange, just on electricity. I understand how urgently we need to move to renewables. I absolutely do. And we are. So renewable energy is about a third of our energy mix at the moment. We'll get it up to 82 percent by 2030. That's 82 per cent in 82 months. That's a big job, that's a huge lift, right. That's a massive task which we're undertaking to get more renewables into the system. But it still means that 18 per cent will be fossil fuels by 2030. Now, that means then you've got to make sure you've got to have supply. And so therefore, it would be irresponsible to say, right, we're not having any of this type or any of that type new. As much as fast as we are transitioning to renewables and increasingly the coal-fired power stations will close down and come out of the system. That means you've really only got nuclear or gas. We're anti-nuclear. I don't think nuclear stacks up and that means you need to make sure that your gas supply is reliable.

ANGE McCORMACK: I can see the thinking behind that, but what about some of the other solutions that we're talking about, like a climate trigger, something that would make the Government consider the climate impact before green lighting projects? Isn't that a reasonable idea?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well again, Tanya Plibersek is working through reforms to the environmental laws and there's been a review which we've accepted, which basically said we need a lot more transparency and it needs to work a lot better. And Tanya is a very assiduous Environment Minister. She's knocked back one coal mine. Yes, she's looked at a small expansion of gas and said, that stacks up. So I don't think that's the answer. And again, what I'm negotiating the safeguards reform. I'm not negotiating other reforms, I'm negotiating with Adam Bandt and the Greens and the Senate crossbench the safeguard reforms and they're the levers that I have at my disposal and that's what I'll work with them on. And as I said, I'm quietly confident we'll get it through because it just is inconceivable to me that the Parliament would just say, yeah, no, we're not doing that. This is the one chance we've had to get emissions down out of big industry. If we don't take it, I think that would be letting the Australian people down.

ANGE McCORMACK: Well, we'll be really interested to follow that and see what happens with those negotiations. Chris Bowen thanks so much for joining me today on Triple J Hack.

CHRIS BOWEN: No problem Ange, thanks for having me on.