Interview with Chris O'Keefe, 2GB

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Minister, thanks for your time.

CHRIS BOWEN: Pleasure, Chris. G’day.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: This isn’t going to work, is it?

CHRIS BOWEN: I disagree. It works in 85 per cent of car sales around the world. It works in the United States, it works in New Zealand, it works in Canada, it works in Europe, it works in the United Kingdom, it works in China, it works in India and it works in Saudi Arabia. Australia and Russia are the only two major countries in the world without these sorts of rules, and what it is is requiring car companies to send us better, cheaper to run, more efficient cars. As I said, it’s a very, very – it’s been the case in the United States since the 1970s, about as long as I’ve been alive. And, as you know, in the United States you can get a big range of cars. And their rules are even stricter in many other markets around the world.

So it does mean, Chris, we’ve been missing out on choices. We’ve been missing out on chances to get better, more efficient cars into Australia. EVs, sure, but not just EVs – more efficient petrol cars, more efficient diesel cars as well.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Sure. But we aren’t America. We’ve got 20 million registered cars here in Australia. America has got closer to 300 million. And we’re, in effect, a very small market and a very small right-hand drive market.

CHRIS BOWEN: Sure. And that’s why car companies can adjust the cars that they already make and send them to different parts of the world. I mean, you know, you’re right – we have some things in common with the United States. We have other things that are different.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: It’s a big difference.

CHRIS BOWEN: We’ve got other things in common with Japan. We’ve also got other things – well, I mean, we’re a smaller market. That’s true.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Right-hand drive, too.

CHRIS BOWEN: No question about that. And, you know, there are other right-hand drive markets in the world with these rules. These rules, as I said, exist in – 85 per cent of car sales around the world are covered by rules like this or stricter than this – or stricter than this. So, you know, car companies adjust. I understand some don’t like having the rules changed. Others have embraced it. You know, others have welcomed what we have done – Hyundai, Volkswagen, BMW, Kia, Volvo –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Well, let’s just stick with Toyota here for a second. Because Toyota has said – quote – that they would rather pass on the cost of the vehicles that don’t meet the standards to consumers than buy credits off manufacturers like Tesla. And if you look at the Hilux, the Hilux is the second most popular car in Australia. It emits 224 grams of CO2 every kilometre, so you would be fining them $8,300, and now Toyota is saying they’re going to pass that on.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, Toyota is campaigning against the new policy, and they can do that. That’s their right, and they’re going to make all sorts of claims. Other car companies strongly disagree.

Chris, I will just pick you up on one thing – under the preferred model that we’re consulting on at the moment, but under the preferred model that we’ve put out, we are having one set of standards for passenger vehicles, another set of standards for light commercial vehicles, recognising that, you know, tradies and –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Sure, but a Hilux is – so the Hilux is –so that $8,300 fine won’t stand?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I’m saying that you quoted 141, which is correct for passenger vehicles. For light commercial vehicles it’s 199. So we’re recognising it’s higher. And, in fact, a couple of points about that – that is less strict than the SCAI, which is the car, you know, peak body. They have a voluntary code. It is less strict than their voluntary code in 2025. It is actually – our light commercial approach is less strict than the United States currently has. So, you know, there’s always apples and oranges. No two systems are exactly the same. But also –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Sure.

CHRIS BOWEN: But also there’s plenty of misinformation. Now –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: I’m just going to – well, this isn’t misinformation if the manufacturers are saying what they’re saying. Isuzu said that they’ll pull out of Australia altogether if they can’t pass on all of the fines on to customers while still selling enough cars to be profitable. And the D Max, third most popular car in Australia, emitting 251 grams of CO2 every kilometre. That means on the 199 standard that you’ve set, that’s, you know, close to a $3,000 fine.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, again, Chris, Isuzu operates, you know, around the world with different rules in different markets. And, you know, they are at the end where they would prefer us not be changing the rules to require more efficient vehicles.

But in relation to cost, I mean, I’m not the first minister to try this. Other ministers have tried it. Paul Fletcher, when he was the minister, tried this not that long ago, Chris. Not that long ago he tried to introduce these rules. And he said at the time – at the very similar to what I’m saying; this is a Liberal minister in 2018 – this is a direct quote, mate: “So when fuel efficiency standards were introduced in the US the most popular models before introduction stayed the most popular models after introduction. Essentially what Americans call pick-up trucks and we call utes, like the Chevy Silverado, there wasn’t” – this is the kicker, this is the important point – “there wasn’t a material change in price and we don’t expect that there would be a material change in price.” That’s what he –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: But you can’t compare – you can’t compare the United States of America to Australia when, again, they’ve got 300 million registered vehicles. They’re a massive, massive market for the manufacturers. We’ve got 20 million here, and it’s right-hand drive. They are very different markets, Minister.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, but what he is making the point and I am making the point, Chris, that these full efficiency standards have been introduced in country after country after country – not just the United States –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Yeah, but maybe this won’t work in Australia.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, why wouldn’t – why would Australia, Chris, be different to every other country in the world? Saudi Arabia, China, India all have these rules. In no country as a result of this policy coming in has the price of utes or any particular model gone up. None. So why would we be so different?

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Because we’re a different market.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Twenty million registered vehicles, right-hand drive.

CHRIS BOWEN: We’re a larger market than New Zealand. They’ve had these standards for several years. We are smaller than many markets but larger than other markets. But I think, with respect, you’re putting a bit too much emphasis on the size of the market. The fact of the matter is, yeah, of course, we’re smaller than the United States. Nobody would pretend otherwise –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: You’re the one who keeps bringing up the United States of America, how we’re trailing behind.

CHRIS BOWEN: And the fact of the matter is our cars are 20 per cent less efficient than the United States. You want a different market? Forty per cent less efficient than Europe. Now, people would understand, though, that Europe is a bit different – their cars are smaller.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Sure.

CHRIS BOWEN: So I think the better comparison is the United States. Our cars use 20 per cent petrol – more petrol on average than cars in the United States. And that means, Chris, people listening to us this afternoon are spending more on petrol than they would need to if they had a choice – this is all about choices – a choice and a chance of getting a more efficient model that isn’t sent to Australia.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: More efficient model that will be more expensive.

CHRIS BOWEN: Some of them are and some of them aren’t. But it’s about choices. It’s about choices. And –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Well, okay, let’s talk about – I know you’ve raised the LDV T60 electric ute a fair bit – “Oh, you know, we’ve got electric utes.”

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it was raised in parliament. It was raised in parliament by the other side.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Do you honestly think that that’s a credible electric alternative?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it’s – it is an electric alternative. The other side of parliament raised that example, and I responded to it. There are many, many examples –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: So you think it’s a credible electric alternative for ute drivers?

CHRIS BOWEN: For some people – not for everyone. Not for everyone.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: They’re $100,000, and when they’re loaded up, the furthest you can go is 150 kilometres before you have to charge it up. The like-for-like is a Ford Ranger which costs 51,000 and drives 1,000 kilometres with a tank of diesel.

CHRIS BOWEN: I can go through all sorts of examples, Chris, as well, of models that are available in other countries that are more efficient, that still use petrol, but they have more efficient engines than the cars they’re sending to Australia. And I’m not here to say, you know, this is – the this person will want to buy this car or this person will want to buy that car. You know, I live in Smithfield in Western Sydney. I’m surrounded by utes, I’m surrounded by EVs, I’m surrounded by big cars, small cars. People make their choices. They’ll continue to make their choices, but they’ll have better choices to make if we have similar rules in place that other countries have had for the better part of 50 years, mate. Fifty years these rules have been in place in the United States. And –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: So, is this about climate change? Partly about climate change?

CHRIS BOWEN: This is a win-win-win, because if you’re using less petrol, you’re saving money. You’re saving emissions and the atmosphere is better, health is better. So you can do more than one thing at once. I am –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: So it’s – but you would say somewhat in a way to combat climate change, no?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it is for – it has multiple benefits.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Is that part of it, though?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, of course it’s good to reduce emissions.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Okay.

CHRIS BOWEN: It’s also good to reduce the amount of money people spend –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Can I just run you through some maths. I just want to run you through some numbers. So in the year to June 2023 Australia’s emissions were around 467 million tonnes, right? Passenger vehicles are around 10 per cent of those emissions, so 46 million tonnes. Global emissions are 50 billion tonnes. Your plan only applies to new cars. So next year they’ll be about 5 per cent of all cars on the road. So we’re going to all this effort to cut global emissions by a whopping 0.004 per cent next year.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, Chris, that is part of an argument that some people run to say Australia is so small it really doesn’t matter. I don’t agree with that argument. I don’t agree with that argument. What everybody does matters. What everybody does matters. But I also – the more important argument –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Yeah, but –

CHRIS BOWEN: Hang on. Hang on, you asked me a question. The more important point is Australians for years have been missing out on the chance to drive cars that use less fuel. That is not okay. Why would Australia and Russia want to be the only two countries in the world, major countries, that don’t have rules like this? Why would it be a good idea for Canada to do it, New Zealand to do it, the United Kingdom to do it, China to do it, India to do it, all these other countries to do it and for us in Australia to say, “Listen, car manufactures, you send us whatever old cars you like. They don’t have to be efficient. You don’t have to give us choices. You just keep sending us these cars.” You know what we will be? You know what we have been and will continue to be? A dumping ground for cars that other countries won’t accept.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: But don’t – I’m speaking to the Energy Minister Chris Bowen here. But don’t you accept, though, that the way you’ve structured this program means that you are now at risk of the manufacturers sending over electric vehicles on mass that are too expensive, do not work in Australia, people do not want. People don’t have to buy them. They’ve just got to send them out.

CHRIS BOWEN: But why would you say electric vehicles don’t work in Australia? There’s a lot of demand for electric vehicles. A lot of people want to buy an electric vehicle, maybe for their next car or maybe the car after. But they want to see better choices. There are electric vehicles available in other countries in the world not available here –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Minister, how many people in – how many people in Smithfield are driving EVs? Seriously?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, actually Western Sydney EV sales are quite high, mate. I invite you to look at the figures.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: What number?

CHRIS BOWEN: As I said –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: You’re the Energy Minister. How many people in Smithfield are driving EVs?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, when I drive around Smithfield I see quite a few, but I also see utes. There are – people are making a journey. People are at different points of the journey. Other countries are, you know, starting to rule out petrol cars and diesel cars. We’re not doing that. We’re not doing that –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Because you can’t do that. We’ve got a massive, massive country –

CHRIS BOWEN: A hundred per cent.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: – and the range and the price point for electric vehicles is just not applicable for people.

CHRIS BOWEN: For many people. For many people, not for all people, Chris. There are people in the regions –

CHRIS O’KEEFE: But aren’t you –

CHRIS BOWEN: – who want to buy electric cars. There are people in the regions who don’t want to buy electric cars.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: And some people want to buy diesel cars, too.

CHRIS BOWEN: Absolutely. And they should have the chance to buy more efficient diesel cars.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Just more expensive ones under your plan.

CHRIS BOWEN: Don’t you think they should have the chance, if they want to, to have – to look at an EV or a diesel car or petrol car and make their own choices based on better range and better choice of vehicles? I think they do.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: All right. Before I let you go – we’ve run out of time, but I do appreciate you coming on – before I let you go, can you give us an ironclad guarantee that the cars that are sent here to Australia, the most popular – you know, your D-Maxes, your Hiluxes, your Rangers – will not be thousands and thousands of dollars more expensive come January 1?

CHRIS BOWEN: Hasn’t happened anywhere else in the world. Why would it happen here?

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Well, can you give us an ironclad guarantee?

CHRIS BOWEN: That is absolutely what our work and analysis shows us. No model available in Australia today as a result of this policy will be more expensive after the policy comes in.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: All right.

CHRIS BOWEN: There are plenty of car companies that agree with that, one or two who don’t. This is a debate. We’re consulting on the finer details of the model now. We’ll have more to say about that quite soon, Chris.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Sure.

CHRIS BOWEN: Other governments have tried this, including Liberal governments, and failed. It’s about time a government got [indistinct] and gave Australians better choices.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: It’s not the same people that did the modelling on your $275 of energy bills?

CHRIS BOWEN: This is – well, there is substantial modelling from every country in the world that has done this, and Australia would not be any different.

CHRIS O’KEEFE: Toyota, Isuzu, they’re all lying. Anyway, I appreciate you coming on.

CHRIS BOWEN: Good on you, Chris.