Interview with Craig Reucassel, ABC Radio Sydney

CRAIG REUCASSEL: Well, the Commonwealth and State Governments are rolling out a package of $206 million to upgrade social housing, low-income renters and apartments residents to make their homes more energy efficient. Over 24,000 homes will be eligible for upgrades, including heat pump hot water systems, ceiling fans, reverse cycle air conditioners, solar systems, insulation and draught proofing.

And Chris Bowen, the Minister for Climate Change and Energy for the Federal Government, joins us now to explain how this will impact you in Sydney.

Thanks for joining us, Chris.

CHRIS BOWEN: Pleasure, Craig, good morning.

CRAIG REUCASSEL: So who is this aimed at? Who will be getting these benefits here? Is this just for low-cost housing?

CHRIS BOWEN: It's certainly aimed at people who have up until now by and large otherwise missed out on the renewable energy revolution, and that does include social housing and public housing dwellers, apartment dwellers more broadly, and yes, low-income people, and often obviously in that venn diagram, Craig, there's a huge overlap of people in those categories.

But it's a multi-pronged policy we're announcing today in partnership with the New South Wales Government. Social housing and public housing is a big chunk of it. Obviously, that is very old stock generally across the country, a lot of our social and public housing is old, before we started improving building standards, so a lot of it is energy inefficient and doesn't have a lot of renewable energy, so it's a partnership between the two governments to start the work of turning that around.

CRAIG REUCASSEL: Look, I think the social housing stuff is an absolute no brainer there. It's interesting though you're also adding looking at access for solar for low income renters and apartment residents. And I just want to quickly talk that through. So how does this work, because I know this has been one of the difficult things in terms of a solar roll out.

As you say, if you've got your own house and you can chuck solar on it, you're kind of well ahead in this curve. But if I'm an apartment owner and I'm down on the second floor and I've got three more floors above me, and we've got a little roof up the top that kind of, you know, how do I benefit from this? How am I going to get a benefit?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it's a lot more complicated, isn't it, to navigate. And I've spoken to a lot of strata dwellers who really want to do this that have found it very difficult, and it is a bit of a policy conundrum as to how you fix this because you've got a very complicated sort of interaction of strata rules, landlords, tenants, et cetera.

So, and I'm not - we're not pretending that what we're announcing today is the be-all and end-all, the answer to this, but it is a pretty good start, and this is the solar banks part of our policy.

So, in this case we are giving sort of options, we will either help co-fund 50 per cent of the solar for apartments and stratas, and again, this is the New South Wales element of the policy; we've already announced this for ACT and Victoria, for example, earlier.

So around 7,000 apartments we think are in a position to benefit from this particular policy where we will come in and say, "All right, strata wants to do solar, but having trouble making it all sort of stack up and work out. We're going to help with 50 per cent of cost."

Then there's another set of apartment dwellers and low-income dwellers where, for a whole bunch of other reasons, rooftop solar might not even work, it might be just, you know, in many of our built-up areas a very shady building, where it's overshadowed by other buildings, there could be other complications. So, they'll have access to Solar Gardens, which is a solar, a small solar farm somewhere else, but they'll be able sign up to the output of that solar garden and basically feed in, you know, through the strata there.

So, it's a horses-for-courses type solution, Craig, because, because we are dealing with so many people in different circumstances, we are trying to provide options for people as they navigate their way through this journey.

CRAIG REUCASSEL: Absolutely. So, I understand, yeah, Solar Gardens, kind of getting into your head that, "Yeah, my solar panels aren't on my roof, they're out on a farm somewhere near Griffith, but it's still my solar panels." It's an interesting idea for people.

Just sticking with this. You say that you'll help to give access for low-income renters. Now this is, I think, one of the big problems. The number of renters that say to me, "I want solar, I want the benefits of that, but I can't do this." Now, Victoria has had Solar Victoria - two particular policies there that give huge benefit for people putting solar on the roof.

The ones for owner-occupiers are always totally used - you know, it's flooded with people doing it. The ones for renters are not even a tiny bit used, like there's thousands left over, and that's because there's a mismatch between the power dynamic in a renter and their landlord. How are you overcoming this so that a low-income renter can go to whoever the landlord is and say, "Hey, I want to take part in this system, and I'm not" you know, there's a real power problem here, isn't there?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah. Well, I'm not - whether it's a power problem or just a disconnect is part of the big policy conundrum here, because the landlord inevitably had the cost of putting the solar panels on, but because renters pay electricity bills in their own system, they get the benefit of reduced bill.

So, there's a disconnect there. And yes, you're right, I've spoken again to many renters who are very keen, and some of them, they're happy to do it, but you know, you wouldn't say the majority, who are willing to fork out where the tenant gets the benefit in by and large. Obviously, the value of the house has improved.

Really, and as I said, I'm not suggesting there's any single solution to this, but us coming in and saying we'll cover 50 per cent of the cost for renewable energy in apartments through stratas is a pretty big start, because it just takes the burden off, and really makes it more economical.

Now there's various sort of private sector products available too, you know, I'm not going spruiking a particular private sector product, but yeah, look, there's various products which make it more viable for strata providers, you know, Lumo and others who provide those products available, and what we're really doing is coming in here in this way and saying, well, we want to just make this a bit easier and a bit more viable for those who are looking at this journey. We're all at different stages on the journey in terms of decarbonising, and we all have different challenges.

CRAIG REUCASSEL: Just so I can clarify that, and I'm speaking to the Minister, Chris Bowen, the Federal Minister for Climate Change and Energy, off the back of this Commonwealth and State Government package, $206 million package offering energy upgrades and solar for low-income renters and apartment residents. I understand that part of this package is you make it easier for the strata to kind of get together and go, "We're going to put solar on the roof." 

If I'm a low-income renter, who am I going to? Am I going to the strata, the landlord, my real estate agent, am I going to the Government, am I going to the Federal Government, the State Government, who am I going to to get this?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, and again, I think that's part of the journey. It depends where you are. If you are in a strata, I think the strata is the first port of call.

CRAIG REUCASSEL: Yeah, but a renter never talks to the strata. Like I'm a low income renter, who am I going to

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah. Well, in that case, obviously, you know, you might think about going through the landlord and the real estate agent to the strata. Again, I'm not pretending this is an easy thing to navigate, but we are trying to make it as easy as possible.

Obviously what we're coming in is trying to get interest for this to, you know, force stratas and landlords to say, "Oh, hang on, this might now work, you know, this might now be worth something to contemplate and to take through the strategy approval process." 

And it is something which has been on my mind and our mind for some time. How are we going to - with so many houses being rented or strataed or apartments and dwellings being rented or strataed, we cannot see them miss out on the journey, we can't see social housing miss out, and public housing, and certainly we're making sure that's the case, and that's a bit simpler administratively, obviously, because it's a pretty simple arrangement between the State Government, landlords and the public housing tenants, or social housing through the community housing group.

We’re coming in with the money there, and both governments are putting in 87.5 million each for the social and public housing element of it, so that will make a big difference across 30,000 dwellings there for social housing in New South Wales.

CRAIG REUCASSEL: Just finally, Chris Bowen, you're saying over 24,000 homes will be eligible for upgrades, including heat pump hot water systems and ceiling fans, reverse cycle air conditioners, all of this solar, solar systems and insulation. Do we actually have the products in Australia to do this, and do we also have the kind of, I guess the tradies to put it in? Because one of the big problems at the moment is that we have these Government policies, and then we go, "Actually, you know, everything's gone to America because of the IRA, or we don't have enough people to put this in." So how are we overcoming that?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, we certainly have the products, you know, there's a great range, whether it's heat pumps or reverse cycle air conditioning, which is a lot more efficient, certainly solar panels, we certainly have the products. At the moment we have the labour, although there are some labour shortages. But the labour shortage is more an issue that we have to manage going forward.

You know, we need 37,000 more sparkies for this revolution, of course. Now I see that as a very good problem to have, to find people to fill those jobs, it sure beats the opposite problem of not having enough jobs being created. But we see it as a challenge.

Brendan O'Connor, for example, the skills Minister, has an op-ed in the papers today just on this very challenge, it's a key focus for Jobs and Skills Australia, we've got our new energy apprentices, we've got TAFE programs, we are working across the board with States and Territories through our Energy Ministers Council, it's one of our, you know, it's one of our standing items, the skills, the emerging and ongoing skills challenges of making sure we have enough people to fill these jobs.

It's not going to be an issue for actually rolling out this particular program, but you are right, Craig, it's an issue going forward, and as I said, in many ways a very good problem for Australia to have, but nevertheless a challenge we've got.

CRAIG REUCASSEL: Yeah, a problem itself. Well, thank you for talking to us, Chris Bowen, the Federal Minister for Climate Change and Energy. I'm not sure I still entirely understand how a low-income renter gets these solar panels. If you are a low-income renter out there and you try this process, please get back to us and tell us how it goes, and we'll feed it back to Chris. Thanks so much, Minister.

CHRIS BOWEN: Happy to come on and talk about how it's going down the track, Craig.