Interview with Emma Rebellato, ABC News Breakfast

EMMA REBELLATO: Okay. There is plenty to discuss on the political landscape. Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Chris Bowen, joins us now from Sydney.

Minister, let's start with that story, with that resignation in the Nationals.

CHRIS BOWEN: Good morning, Emma. Well, I wish Keith Pitt the best for his retirement, but I actually don't agree with him. I think the problem is not that David Littleproud isn't calling the shots, it's that he is.

I mean the National Party is setting far too much economic and climate policy for the Coalition. You've got a whole group of climate change deniers in there, and they are driving policy, and one thing you shouldn't let the National Party near is climate change policy. Peter Dutton would be a worse Prime Minister for climate than Scott Morrison was, and that's in no small part because of the likes of Matt Canavan and others, Alex Antic in the Liberal Party, are calling the shots on their climate policy.

EMMA REBELLATO: Minister, let's talk about a story that we have been discussing, in particular we asked Sarah Hanson-Young about, and it's this decision to extend for coal mines that the Government has made. She is saying it's an appalling decision, it's full of spin, it's making climate change worse. Why has the Government approved it?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, a couple of points. Firstly, these extensions to existing coal mine operations are for metallurgical coal, coal that gets used for steel making.

Now with all due respect to Sarah, I'd like an explanation as to how you can make steel without coal at the moment. Green steel is coming, we're investing in it, it's got a great future, but it's not here yet, and the fact of the matter is when the Greens talk about these things, the Greens Political Party talks about these things, they really just lump all coal in together.

Tanya Plibersek has applied the law, she always does so vigorously. She's the first Environment Minister in Australian history to knock back a coal mine approval, but she'll also comply with the law.

And let's have a proper debate about the role of coal into the future. We're getting to 82 per cent renewables, we're working with countries like Germany and Japan and Korea to reduce their reliance on fossil fuels and to increase the need for Australian green hydrogen, but this is a long process that we have underway, and we're managing this transition.

EMMA REBELLATO: Look, just on that point that you're saying these are existing coal mines, there's a bit of dispute about that given the Queensland Government and the company said it's looking at one of those mines in Queensland as a separate mine. So how can you say that these are extension of four and there's not a new one there?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, they're existing coal mines, you can cut it however you like, but they are four coal mines there, and my point is also that we're going to need metallurgical coal, coal for steel, for several years to come, many years to come, as we build the capacity of green steel making, which won't need coal. It's not here yet, it's not commercial yet, and the fact of the matter is we need a lot of steel for this transition. We're building a lot of transmission lines and towers around the world. We're going to need more steel not less, and that is going to require - the fact of the matter is, just the cold, hard facts   it's going to require metallurgical coal for years to come.

EMMA REBELLATO: The debate of course is heating up regarding nuclear energy and the Coalition's policy. The videos that have appeared on Labor's social media, including Instagram, the Coalition says that's scaremongering. Is it?

CHRIS BOWEN: No, it's part of the debate. And part of the debate is about how you make nuclear safer. You make nuclear safer by spending hundreds of millions of dollars on it. That's money you don't need to spend to make renewables safer. Renewables are safe, and they don't need that investment. Nuclear has gotten safer over the years by good, strong regulations which require the expenditure of millions and millions of dollars.

That's one of the reasons why nuclear is so expensive and so slow. It's slow because you've got to get those regulations in place, and you've got to spend that money.  And this is the first one week anniversary of the release to the Coalition's costings. That's what we're focusing on, these costings are there - what's codswallop. These are the worse costings produced by an Opposition in 40 years, they miss key facts, they assume that we need 40 per cent less energy by 2050, and guess what, if you produce less energy, it costs less.

Congratulations to Peter Dutton for this piece of absolute nonsense that he's produced, and one week later we're still happy to talk about it, and we'll be talking about nuclear right up to the election.

EMMA REBELLATO: Minister, there's one video in particular that's under Labor's Instagram account which links nuclear power plants to increase in risk of terminal illness. Is that wrong, or are you standing by this?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it's part of the debate, and as I said, you can make nuclear safer, absolutely you can, and it has been made safer by the expenditure of hundreds of millions of dollars, and under Peter Dutton's plan, that's taxpayers' money.

I mean this is not private sector investment like under our plan. Our 82 per cent renewable plan relies primarily on capital from the private sector. He would spend hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayers' money on building a nuclear system, which doesn't exist in Australia at the moment, which would require years of regulation-making to make it safe, and hundreds of millions of dollars’ worth of expenditure. It's a risk Australia doesn't need to take.

EMMA REBELLATO: Minister, the Australian Energy Regulator has put out its biannual report today, and it's focused on South Australia where there's a high percentage of renewable energy, and it's saying the national market has a lot to learn, because there are a lot of challenges, and challenges to competition and costs that need to be addressed. Are you confident that you can address those concerns?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, and the Australian Energy Regulator does a great job, and Clare Savage is a very important part of our transition to renewable energy, and they give governments, State and Federal, advice on regulatory changes together with the other market operators and regulators, and we take those into account and we make the appropriate decisions.

But the Australian Energy Regulator, Clare Savage, has also pointed out on multiple occasions that the biggest risk to reliability in our grid is coal fired power. She gave this evidence to a Parliamentary Inquiry not long ago, pointing out how many breakdowns we're having in coal fired power every single day, including this week, putting pressure on the grid. The grid is coping fine, but you'd rather not have these gigawatts out of coal fired power. Here's the thing, they're getting older, they're getting less reliable, a bit like us, our bodies don't get more efficient and more reliable as they get older, coal fired power stations are breaking down every single day.

Peter Dutton wants to rely on them, we want to transition to 82 per cent renewables, backed by gas peaking and firming, backed by batteries, backed by storage, that's the much better approach for Australia.

EMMA REBELLATO: Yeah, but you're going to have to rely on them until all the renewables get up and running.

CHRIS BOWEN: Absolutely, we're managing a transition. We're managing a transition. But I'll tell you what doesn't help, is delaying that transition waiting for nuclear energy, which will take decades to come on. They say 2037. I mean that's highly ambitious, but I say even if it's accurate, it's too late for Australia. We need the investment today; we need the new gigawatts today.

And I'm happy with this, I'm happy with this, it's almost the end of the year, 2024 will have more renewable energy connected to the grid than any other year in Australian history. I think that's a good thing. This shows our policies are working and the transition is well underway.

EMMA REBELLATO: Minister, just finally, you're from New South Wales. What's your reaction to news that the train dispute is going on and potentially could disrupt New Year's Eve celebrations? This isn't a good look for Sydney, is it, when all eyes of the world are on Sydney for New Year's?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I'd just say there's a few days left, I wish all the best to the Premier and the Transport Minister. I know they're working 24/7 to try and get this matter resolved. Obviously, we would want to see Sydney's trains working on New Year's Eve, everyone would, and I know that that's certainly the Premier's approach, to try and get this matter resolved.

But to be honest, we've got plenty on our plate, the Federal Government will leave the State Government to manage that.

EMMA REBELLATO: Minister Chris Bowen, thank you so much for joining us on News Breakfast. Have a great Christmas.

CHRIS BOWEN: Same to you and your family and all our viewers.