Interview with Kieran Gilbert, Sky News Afternoon Agenda

KIERAN GILBERT: Joining me live now in the studio, the Minister for Climate and Energy, Chris Bowen. Thanks for your time. You've agreed to a number of amendments. I was just talking to Andrew about it. A win for the teals as well. Was that part of your plan, to give them a win as well as part of this?

CHRIS BOWEN: It's what sensible governments do, Kieran. It's what grown-ups do, working across the Parliament for good outcomes. I said right at the beginning, 'We don't need the votes of the independents to pass this through the House of Representatives', but nor do we think we have all wisdom on every word of the bill. And we were very clear, any amendments which undermined our agenda, undermined the mandate which we sought and received from the Australian people, no point talking about that. We wouldn't entertain. Any suggestions which help that agenda, which complement or improve that agenda, happy to work across the Parliament. So the independents had some ideas, some of which I said, look, that just doesn't wash. We can't work with that. Others, I said, well, that's a good idea to clarify something or help something. I just reckon that's one, sure, it's good manners, but two, it's just good government as well.

KIERAN GILBERT: Well, you've had the win. It is a diabolical area of policy for more than a decade. You've got it through the Lower House, it will go through the Upper House. But it is also, as I said, it doesn't hurt you to pump up the tires of those independents that hold traditionally Liberal seats.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it doesn't hurt for a government to work across the chamber with people of goodwill. I would have been happy also to do it with the Liberal Party, to be fair, if they’d said, look, we'll consider voting for this bill if we have some improvements or suggestions from their point of view. I would have been at least open to that conversation. They didn't bother. They made themselves irrelevant. They just said, before they saw the bill, we're against it, didn't take it to the Shadow Cabinet, it didn't take it to the party room, and just said, we're against it. Well, you can't really work with that. Some of the independents wanted more and wanted different things, but they were happy to engage, and I was happy to engage with them, with parties across the crossbench, with the independents. Again, Kieran, I think it's just good government.

KIERAN GILBERT: What do you say to critics, including some in the Coalition, that the renewable energy target, which runs parallel to today's commitment of upwards of 80% by 2030, that it can't be managed within our energy transmission system the way it is.

CHRIS BOWEN: They just show they don't get it, Kieran. I mean, they just show… Some of the speeches from members of the opposition, we're about how renewable energy is expensive. It's not. It's the cheapest form of energy. About how it's unreliable, well, if you build the transmission and the storage, you can very sensibly get to 82% renewable energy. Yes, we need transmission. We've got a policy to do that. Yes, we need storage, having the investment framework will help us do that. It just shows they don't get it. We absolutely have to make this transition. The transition, Kieran, has been too slow and too disorderly. I want a transition which is faster but more orderly and the passage of the bill into an act will help us make it orderly. If anybody says we need an orderly transition, that's correct. We also need a fast one. We can do both. We need much more renewable energy capacity on. We need the transmission to get it around the country. We've got a policy to do that. And we need the storage so that when the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining we can still draw on that energy and we can do that, whether it's batteries, pumped hydro, green hydrogen in due course, that's all storage which we are going to need.

KIERAN GILBERT: Is it all, though, realistic? The quantum you're talking about?

CHRIS BOWEN: Absolutely 82% is realistic. Yes, it's ambitious, but it's achievable. The rest of the world is doing it. We need to do it. We have been waiting around too long to do it. We've got eight years to 2030. We've got 89 months to get this done. So it is ambitious, but absolutely it is achievable. And Kieran, it'll create jobs as we do so. Renewable energy is the cheapest form of energy. That creates jobs as you get more renewable energy in. And secondly, it creates jobs as we build that transmission and we build that storage. So it's good for the economy.

KIERAN GILBERT: What do you say again to those critics who might point to countries in Europe like Germany reopening mothballed coal plants because of the gas crisis?

CHRIS BOWEN: I think that shows the danger of being too reliant on one particular source of energy from one particular country. And much of Europe is very reliant on Russian gas. So I think that shows, if anything, the need for more renewable energy because it is reliable in terms of, there's no geopolitical crisis which can impact on the flow of the sun to our land and the wind on and off our shores. Much of Europe is actually also, it's a myth to say that this impacts in a negative way on the transition to renewables. Yes, they're having to make some urgent short-term decisions, of course, but they're also moving even faster in many instances on their renewable energy targets getting more renewable energy into the system because they know they have to because it's good for national security.

KIERAN GILBERT: With the climbing level of renewables here that you're planning, gas will still be an important, firming, dispatchable source. Would you like a more sustainable framework as opposed to what we're seeing at the moment where we see our authorities warn of a shortage, the gas producers pulled into line and then they've got to produce more. It just seems not a functional way to be running that part of the sector.

CHRIS BOWEN: I think that's a fair call and that's why we are looking at reforms there. Madeleine King is looking at reforms to the various so-called triggers that aren't very effective. She has indicated where we're heading on the trigger, so-called ADGSM, but she is not, as the relevant Minister, able to pull it right now there is a long consultation process. It is of very limited utility. We'll do what we can with the resources we have available to us in terms of regulation, but we do think they need to be better. We do think the gas companies have a social licence. They should be providing gas to Australian manufacturers in the Australian sector. And if we need to, we'll engage in whatever regulatory reform comes out of Madeleine King's process. And that process is well advanced.

KIERAN GILBERT: There are still emissions with gas, there aren't with nuclear. Why don't you look at it?

CHRIS BOWEN: Why would we look at the most expensive form of energy available? I mean, this is economic illiteracy from an opposition searching for relevance. It is slow to deploy. It couldn't be deployed in Australia until 2030. It is by far the most expensive form of energy. I mean, if Peter Dutton thinks he knows more than the CSIRO, then he's welcome to put that case. The CSIRO has made it very, very clear renewables are the cheapest form of energy. Nuclear is the most expensive. Why with rising energy prices you would put in the most expensive form of energy available is beyond me.

KIERAN GILBERT: Finally, with the Coalition not supporting this bill, do you see any scenario where say, the power prices are through the roof in three years, they can run on a campaign of saying that you overdid it with these clients?

CHRIS BOWEN: I've seen Liberals out there saying, we want higher climate targets. I mean, they're all over the shop Kieran, and they'll do what they do. They'll engage in short-term politics. They've made themselves irrelevant. Wasn't my choice to make them irrelevant. They've made themselves irrelevant. We won an election based on a very strong climate agenda. They campaigned against it. They're still fighting the last wars. They're not catching up. They're out of touch and they're out of relevance to the process.

KIERAN GILBERT: Climate Minister Chris Bowen. Appreciate it, as always. Thank you.

CHRIS BOWEN: A great pleasure.