Interview with Kieran Gilbert, Sky News Afternoon Agenda

KIERAN GILBERT: Climate and Energy Minister Chris Bowen. Thanks for your time.

CHRIS BOWEN: Pleasure, Kieran.

KIERAN GILBERT: The Greens have said that you'd be giving the UN the middle finger if you don't listen to them and block any new coal or gas mines and projects. It doesn't sound like a deal on the Safeguard Mechanism is imminent.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, what the UNFCCC and the IPCC today have regularly been calling for is more urgent action. And that's what we're doing. The package we have before the Parliament is 205 million tonnes of emissions out of the atmosphere. That's equivalent to two thirds of the cars on Australia's roads. And it's absolutely vital that we seize this opportunity. To put it in another way, Kieran, we've got a target of 43 per cent. Without this, our projections would show much closer to 35 per cent. Now, for those people who called for more than 43, it would be pretty ironic to then vote against action to achieve 43. Now, the negotiations in good faith continue. The discussions continue. We're not there yet, but I'm sure they will continue. And I'll be pretty adamant privately and publicly that the Parliament should seize this opportunity.

KIERAN GILBERT: You're running down the clock, though, on the Safeguard Mechanism. Is the deal still likely? Are you optimistic?

MINISTER CHRIS BOWEN: I'm not here to comment. I am here to say negotiations in good faith continue, as is always the case. We'll conduct those face to face, in good faith, not through the media. And those conversations are important. They'll continue because it's important for the country to get this done, to put aside the decades of denial and delay, to put aside the tribal climate wars, and for people of good faith to come together and get the job done. As I said, Kieran, here’s the stakes 35 per cent outcome or 43? That’s what’s at stake.

KIERAN GILBERT: You said to the Parliament earlier this afternoon that your colleagues have a moral responsibility here. Are you trying to say to The Greens, look at your record, look back at recent history, back to 2009-10, and what could have been?

CHRIS BOWEN: 2009-10 is an objective matter of fact. Yes, the Parliament had chance in 2009-10 to take real action, to come together and say, look, we don’t agree with everything, but let's get the job done. And we all know the history of the last 15 years or so and we've seen what can happen if the Parliament gets it wrong. So, yes, there is an obligation on all of us to come together and work in good faith. If we don't, The Greens or others can say, “oh, we don't like this bit,” or they don't like that bit. If you're voting against it, you are stopping any progress. The Parliament has a point and frankly, the Greens have a choice: make progress or make a point. If they want to make progress, I'm here to make progress. They want to make a point, they can do that, but a point is not progress.

KIERAN GILBERT: Did that AEMO report, even if you wanted to do a deal, say, on gas, that was a reminder that you quite simply can't because the shortage is looming.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I think it was, if anything, a justification the position we've taken, and I've been saying right since the beginning of this, it would be irresponsible to just put a blanket ban on gas. That would be irresponsible. Gas is an important firming and peaking backup to renewable energy. We're going to get to 82 per cent renewable energy by 2030. That means 18 per cent is still fossil fuels and increasingly of that 18 per cent, increasingly it's gas. Southern fields are diminishing at a relatively rapid rate. We need to ensure gas supply to our gas fired power stations because they come on as we're moving to 82 per cent, building the storage and the transmission, it's a massive national task, Kieran. 82 per cent in 82 months, that's what we're doing. And gas will be a very important backup to that.

KIERAN GILBERT: One of the other concerns from the crossbench is the unlimited potential use of offsets for heavy emitters. The argument that we've heard from David Pocock and others, it leaves us just with Kazakhstan as a country that has unlimited offsets. Are you willing to budge on that?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, let me make a couple of points, Kieran. Firstly, we have the most regulated and developed carbon trading market in the world. We recently did the Chubb Review. Not everybody loves it, but the Chubb Review, even its critics say going forward, is international best practice. But I'd make even a more important point. If people are going to call for ACCU limits, they have to explain how sectors within the Safeguard Mechanism, who currently don't have the technology available that others do, would achieve their targets. Take cement, for example. If you're going to argue for ACCU limits, you have to show me how cement would achieve the targets with the technology available currently. Nobody's been able to do that, i.e. - so therefore you've got to allow access to ACCUs as that technology emerges. 

And what we're really doing is putting in place a framework so that the chief executives and sustainability directors of these firms can go to their boards and say “look, here's the government's fundamental. We've got to reduce emissions by 4.9 per cent, we've got to buy all these offsets, or we can invest now in this technology which will reduce the amount of offsets we have to buy. Let's invest in the technology.”  That's what the framework does.

KIERAN GILBERT: The ACCUs you refer to they're basically our carbon credits in Australia. Do they stack up because my understanding is well and Ian Chubb the former chief scientist said there should be a review of the 300 or so projects that make up those credits. Are you going to have an independent review on that?

CHRIS BOWEN: We are implementing all the Chubb recommendations, all of them with urgency, with urgency. Some of them are in legislation, some of them have already done, others we're working on. But we're getting on the job of all of them, including the recommendations he's made for checking and auditing.

KIERAN GILBERT: The last chance decade is what it's called, to put the brakes on global warming. The IPCC issued that latest report that we touched on earlier, but what's your read on how grave that warning is? Not just in the terms of what this country does, but globally? Is the world doing enough? You attended the climate talks, so are we doing enough as a human race?

CHRIS BOWEN: No, not yet. I mean, it's not too late Kieran. I mean, some people say you can't hold the world now to 1.5 degrees and it is hard, and every day of delay makes it harder. But every little bit of difference over 1.5 makes a huge difference to the health of our planet and the health of our people. Every little degree, every difference between 1.6 and 1.7 and 1.8 makes a huge difference to human health. So, we've really got to up the game. Really got to up the game. 

And the upcoming COP in Dubai will be really important. It's a global stocktake where the world comes together to check on progress. I don't think it's going to be a pretty picture. From our point of view, what we need to do is get on with the job and get emissions down. As I said before, in the case of the safeguards, 205 million tonnes at stake. So, $205 million question for the Parliament this week.

KIERAN GILBERT: Finally, some of your colleagues in the caucus over AUKUS for the recent deal on the subs have expressed concerns. Members of the left, Josh Wilson took it to parliament last night in fact, reflected on those concerns. Has Paul Keating given members of your caucus cover to come out and have a crack at that deal?

CHRIS BOWEN: I think Kieran, that caucus is remarkably unified. Remarkably unified and of one mind. And of course, well, I don't go into what happens in caucus meetings. You're going to get constructive questions. That's how I would characterise it. Very constructive questions coming from a good place, getting reassurances about key matters. That's what a good Member of Parliament does with their executive. Ask us, get information, suggest things to us all within the frame of supporting the government policy.

KIERAN GILBERT: That's not a splinter.

CHRIS BOWEN: Absolutely not.

KIERAN GILBERT: Minister for Climate and Energy Chris Bowen. Thanks for your time, appreciate it.

CHRIS BOWEN: Great pleasure.