Interview with Melinda James, ABC Illawarra

MELINDA JAMES: You are on ABC Illawarra and ABC South East. We're both regions that have been considered for offshore wind zones in the future. The Federal Government declared Gippsland as Australia's first offshore wind zone yesterday - a formal declaration. 

The Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Chris Bowen made the announcement in Gippsland yesterday. Interestingly, there were some changes made, it would appear, as a result of community opposition, or at least community concern about what these things would look like, the kind of impact they may have. 

The Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Chris Bowen, has been good enough to join us this morning. Minister Bowen, good morning. 

CHRIS BOWEN: Good morning, Melinda. 

MELINDA JAMES: What is the significance of this? What does it actually mean, Gippsland being declared Australia's first offshore wind zone? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it's a big step forward. We're way behind the rest of the world on offshore wind, it's been happening for many years around the rest of the world, and ironically, as the world's largest island, we haven't been doing that. And offshore wind is jobs rich and it's energy rich. It's energy rich because it's very windy off the coast, and it's windy at night, so you know, you get people saying, renewables don't work at night; well, actually wind does, and particularly offshore wind does. 

It's also very job rich, because the turbines are big and the wind is moving fast, they need a lot of maintenance, they need more maintenance than onshore wind, you've got to have ships to take the workers out there to maintain them. I see all that as a good thing. That's jobs rich for the regions in which they exist. 

So big step forward yesterday, I declared the zone. As you said, there's some way to go yet, so in Gippsland we're calling for licence applications between January and April next year, which we'll need to work through, and they'll all need to get environmental approvals, but there's a lot of interest in the Gippsland. And as you mentioned, interest in Illawarra as well going forward.

MELINDA JAMES: Now, this declaration of the zone, this is simply because we're talking about offshore, we're talking about a place where development doesn't usually occur, as we know it, on terra firma, and so, what, this is simply rezoning a part of the planet, isn't it, to allow for development of this kind to take place? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Basically, it's legislative regime that we set up is, rather than just having basically put offshore wind anywhere, working out where it works best so that the proponents can concentrate, the companies can concentrate on the areas where they know they're going to get government support, as opposed to sort of just throwing a dart at a map and working out where they're going to put it. 

The zones that we look at, and Illawarra is certainly on our list, as I have previously announced. We sort of consider where's the wind strong, where's the environmental conditions good for offshore wind, where is the private sector interest, where is the grid strong, so particularly - and this is, you know, I think really good news -  particularly in those areas that have generated energy for a long time, like our industrial areas, and including the Illawarra, where the grid is strong, where we either have heavy users or heavy generators of electricity - so by the grid's strong I mean there's lots of wires around - then that means that area is very well qualified to cope and deal with offshore wind. 

So we've got the Gippsland, we've got the Illawarra, we've got Hunter, we've got the area off Bunbury in Perth, in Western Australia, in Perth, that I have previously expressed a view about, that they will be becoming offshore wind zones, including Portland, and another area of the Bass Strait around Tasmania. 

So Gippsland is the first of those lists, and as you said, we work through it very carefully. So while we're moving quickly, we're also moving very carefully to make sure that communities are supportive, to make sure we're taking into account community feedback, local knowledge, environmental concerns. 

So I put out a draft of the Gippsland zone earlier this year to see what people thought of it, had a lot of support, had a lot of issues raised, a lot of   I wouldn't say opposition but concerns, very genuine concerns raised about various elements. So the area I declared yesterday, instead of being the 27,000 square kilometres that we started with, was 15,000 square kilometres, so certainly listened to communities along that process, and instead of starting 5 kilometres offshore, it starts 10 kilometres offshore. 

So when we come to do the Illawarra, that will be the same process. So, we'll put out a map to say, "Well, we're thinking about this. What does the community think about this zone?" It will be open for around two months for people to put their views, we'll work through all the submissions, and then I'll make an announcement about what we're doing about the Illawarra and where the zone will actually be based on that community feedback.  So we move quickly, but we also make sure that communities have a good say.

MELINDA JAMES: As you mentioned, the parameters for that zone did change since the consultation period to now the approval of the zone or the formal declaration of the zone based on, as you said, community consultation. How much is the initial zone informed by what proponents have put forward as to what they would like to do, because we know that in many instances, including here in the Illawarra and on the South Coast, there are a couple of proponents who have been very open about their plans. We're hearing there are many more who have not yet made any proposals they might have public. How much has the Federal Government been informed by what companies want to do when they're assessing what can and can't be a zone? 

CHRIS BOWEN: It's one of the factors obviously, you know, it would be a bit silly for me to declare a zone where nobody was interested in building offshore wind.

MELINDA JAMES: Of course, yeah.

CHRIS BOWEN: So it's one of the factors we look at. Well, there's a lot of private sector interest here, for example, OceanX and others are interested in Illawarra because all the conditions are good, the skills are there, the community has good energy skills and energy understanding, so it's one of the factors. We also factor in environmental issues, whether the water is used by the defence forces heavily, you know, what the commercial fishing arrangements are. There's many, many, factors that I have to take into account, and I do take into account.  And the good news is, Illawarra's on the list of the communities that, you know, tick those boxes, and there will be a lot of consultation with the community yet before I finally declare a zone and start accepting licence applications.

MELINDA JAMES: In terms of where these things are placed, there seem to be, I guess broadly, two themes when it comes to community concern. Can we just deal with them and how they were treated in the Gippsland example, because that's kind of informative for us when it comes to our turn, I suppose. One is marine life. So I know that   is it the orange-bellied parrot that people have concerns about? 

CHRIS BOWEN: That's it. That's it, the famous, orange-bellied parrot, yes. 

MELINDA JAMES: Okay. So what were concerns in that respect, what kind of difference did it make to where the zone was declared? 

CHRIS BOWEN: So, you're right. I mean there were many issues that were raised in the Gippsland consultation process. That I had to take into account commercial fishing, recreational fishing, whale migration, defence force uses, et cetera. But you're right, the two big ones probably that came through the community feedback were, one, visual amenity, "Will we be able to see these turbines, will they be in our face, what's it going to look like," and then secondly, environmental concerns, particularly in relation to Gippsland about the endangered orange-bellied parrot, for which frankly we don't know all that much about its migratory patterns, so there was concern that it might impact. 

Now, to be clear, I mean more birds die from running into windows and communications towers and cars than die from wind turbines.

MELINDA JAMES: Is that is the evidence from overseas?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, that's right, there's been many studies. And so, but that doesn't mean we don't consider and take into account, particularly the impact on endangered species. So that's one of the reasons why I took out a lot of square kilometres yesterday from that zone and also pushed it back from 5 kilometres to 10 kilometres. Because to be clear, you can still see wind turbines at 10 kilometres offshore, but they're pretty in your face at 5, so, you know, obviously the further out you go, the less you can see them and the more visually attractive they are if you like.

MELINDA JAMES: Okay. I wanted to get on to the visual impact in just a moment. But just sticking with marine life for a moment, you mentioned whale migration. That's something, every time we talk about this, people raise whale migration and their concerns. I know that these are floating wind turbines, but they will still clearly have some impact on whale migration depending on how concentrated these turbines are, and we're hearing about a large number of them needing to be built for it to be economically viable.  Whale migration, I mean how is that catered for under the Gippsland proposal, for example? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it's very important, because, you know, whales migrate up and down our east coast, so we factor it in. We factor it in both when I'm declaring a zone, and it will also be factored in when the actual environmental approvals for each project come through. 

Now, the good news is offshore wind zones and whales can co-exist, we learned from overseas.  While I'm disappointed we're so far behind the rest of the world on offshore wind, it does mean that we can look at lessons from overseas and how they've dealt with it, and we have done that, and some of them will be floating and some of them will be fixed, depending   you tend to get floating when you get deeper, but certainly, there's interest in floating, including in the Illawarra, which is really cutting edge technology, which means that these big units are actually floating offshore and just tethered to the bottom with a cable as opposed to, you know, the big concrete installation. That's obviously useful for whales. Whales are also, you know, frankly pretty clever animals, they can see things from a way away and they can use their vibration system to navigate around ships and what have you, as we speak, it happens now. 

But again, we factor all that in, take it all in, in the zone I declare. I won't declare a zone if it's got, you know, no chance of environmental approval anyway. That would be ridiculous, it would just sort of set people up for investing money with no chance of approval, so I think about, well, where are these farms likely to get environmental approval, and then secondly, when it does come, environmental approval, so it's all got to go through the EPBC, and as you know, Tanya Plibersek recently announced big improvements to our Federal environmental approvals, there's also state environmental approvals, all that gets factored in. So, after I've declared a zone, then actually a farm has to get that specific environmental approval, which has to factor in whales, birds, the whole shebang. 

MELINDA JAMES: Now, visual impact. Clearly, that seemed to have been an issue in Gippsland, and interestingly, I think the turbines that we've heard of thus far for off the coast of the Illawarra, or even further back, 10kms offshore, I think is the proposition. But interestingly, when we last had this discussion on our program, there was a real generational divide, I have to say, about how happy people were or otherwise at seeing these things off the coast. Young people seemed to think it was the price we had to pay, and older people thought that it was too much. 

The visual impact is undeniable, and the companies have been very upfront about the fact that they will be seen, and there will be many of them. What sort of concern did you hear from the community of Gippsland, and how much did that factor into where these zones were placed? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, again, as you said, mixed views. So, in Gippsland, this has been talked about for a long time. Gippsland has more coal fired stations than many other areas, they know that they're closing, they've been thinking about where the jobs of the future are going to come from, and what the pros and cons of various approaches are. So it's been factored into Gippsland, and where there's a proposal, like OceanX in Illawarra, which are talking to the community, as you said, there's a proposal off Gippsland called Star of the South, which has done a lot of community engagement and meetings and talk, and where that's occurred, I found a lot more sort of support, and you know, a lot more relaxation about the visual impact, and where that hasn't occurred, there's a lot more concern.  And that's one of the factors I consider. I don't want to sort of force these down the throats of communities, I want communities to come with us on the journey. 

You're right. I mean, we can't deal with climate change, you know, without doing things like offshore wind, so we can't just all say, well, we've got to do more, and then oppose all the options to achieve it, so we've got to work these issues through, but we do so very carefully and consultatively. 

Now, you could put, you know, where I made the announcement yesterday, for example, there was an oil rig off the coast, it was 40 kilometres out. I could see it, but only just. You know, I really had to have it pointed out to me, and you know, really sort of squint and I could see it. So, you know, it will vary, and every zone is going to be different. 

Yesterday I decided to move the zone from 5 kilometres to 10 kilometres offshore, in other areas I might do something different based on the community concern and based on the advice and the visual impact. Each will be worked through. It's not a one size fits all. When it comes time to talk to the Illawarra, obviously your local members will play a big role, Alison and Stephen, in particular, will play a big role in funnelling in a community feedback to me.  Both of them are very supportive of this, Alison and Stephen, both been pushing me strongly to get Illawarra up the list, but obviously they'll also be taking on board the concerns and there will be a consultation process. So the draft maps will come out, we'll hold, as we did in Gippsland, community sessions where people can come along and ask questions. The individual proponents are also doing that, as you said, so there's plenty of chances for people to understand better what we're talking about and have their feedback.

MELINDA JAMES: And, yep, we'll be hearing from the Star of the South that they're expecting now that this zone has been officially declared that they won't even start construction until possibly 2028 or later even with first power expected by possibly even 2030.  So, we're still a long way off.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, or maybe a bit earlier, but yeah, that's the sort of timeline that we are looking at here, yes. 

MELINDA JAMES: I really appreciate all your time this morning. Thank you very much. 

CHRIS BOWEN: Always a pleasure, Melinda. Thank you.