Interview with Patricia Karevelas, ABC RN Breakfast

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Minister Chris Bowen joins us now. Chris Bowen. Welcome back to breakfast.

CHRIS BOWEN, MINISTER FOR CLIMATE CHANGE AND ENERGY: Thanks, Patricia. Good morning to you and good morning to everyone.

KARVELAS: Now, the COP27 summit in Egypt opened with a warning countries could either sign a climate solidarity pact, or a collective suicide pact. It is a stark warning. Is anyone actually listening?

BOWEN: I think so. Patricia, I think this is an important conference. It's a waypoint conference. So it's taking progress on issues as opposed to necessarily bringing all issues to a conclusion, but it's an important event always. And I do think the comments of the UN Secretary General have appropriately received world attention. And this is what we've been saying as the new government. Of course, you know, we that we, as a country faced a choice and the people took that choice in May, the world faces a choice, we can let the world continue to warm or we can hold it as close as possible to 1.5 degrees, the ramifications of that for Australia are very significant. We can see the terrible bushfires of 2019 become more and more an average event over the coming decades, or we can work together to hold emissions to reduce emissions. That's our task.

KARVELAS: Will the Australian Government, the Albanese government, commit money to this loss and damage fund?

BOWEN: Let's just step this through Patricia because there's been some pretty egregious misinformation unsurprisingly from the Leader of the Opposition.

Firstly, Australia supports loss and damage being on the agenda. That's a change. I think Peter Dutton is showing, frankly, that he would continue a wrecking approach to international negotiations if he were to become Prime Minister. The two big changes at this COP are the changes in government of Australia and Brazil, which means there are two constructive governments where previously they were wrecking governments.

Now on loss and damage, what is loss and damage? Loss and damage is assisting developing countries deal with the impacts of climate change on their countries. And I'm pleased that Australia has supported loss and damage getting onto the agenda. Now, in relation to compensation: the incoming president of the COP, Minister Shoukry has made it clear and the agenda makes it clear, this is not about compensation. This is about development assistance, working with countries, facilitating cooperation. And we have a particular focus on the Pacific here. And of course, we've increased our foreign aid by $1.4 billion in the Budget, for example, with a strong focus on the Pacific and introduced a new Pacific Climate Fund as part of our agenda that we are implementing since the election.

So we are getting on with that. But we're also coming to the table as constructive engagers in this conversation. Now with Egypt, the new COP President wants to take this conversation is to use this COP to progress, further discussions about financing to be determined in 2024. So finalised in 2024. We're engaged in that, we’re constructive in that Peter Dutton is showing that he would not be constructive in that. There is a difference of approach in that. Australia is back as a constructive player at the table. Under Peter Dutton we would not.

KARVELAS: OK, so you've actually backed loss and damage being on the agenda, got that, will you sign up to a fund though? You are saying that will happen next year, sure. But is your predisposition as a government to sign up to the fund?

BOWEN: Well, that's not on the agenda at this COP. So let's take…

KARVELAS: But what do you think, you obviously have a view because you put it on the agenda, you think it should be on the agenda. So do you think you should sign up?

BOWEN: We support it being on the agenda, and it ended up being unanimous on the agenda. So Peter Dutton would be one out yet again, one out as Prime Minister if he were Prime Minister, but he will be one out around the world arguing that it should not be on the agenda. I guess no surprises there. That would be back to the old days. But this is a discussion to go forward. Now. As I said, our focus has been on improving aid to the Pacific, working with our Pacific friends. I welcome the comments of the PIF chair overnight about Australia's role here that's been very, very welcoming. He's been very constructive of course and recognized Australia's role. Developing the Pacific climate facility, financing facility which we took to the election and we are implementing. That's the job we're getting on and doing and we're also being constructive you know, I've been in the lead up to COP talking to colleagues like John Kerry and Alok Sharma and the New Zealand Minister James Shaw about what we need to do to get these discussions on a good track as well as the incoming president the new president of COP Sameh Shoukry, that's what we've been doing. Constructively engaging and that's what we'll be doing, that's what I'll be doing.

KARVELAS: Is you, you still haven’t, with respect Minister, is your predisposition….

BOWEN: With respect Patricia, there is no fund.

KARVELAS: There will be a fund.

BOWEN: With respect to you Patricia, that’s what’s going to be discussed at COP. With respect Patricia, there is no fund to agree to at the moment, if there is the government will consider our options and will have a normal methodical adult cabinet process, which is how the Albanese government works that.

KARVELAS: You said Peter Dutton would be the one out if he didn’t…

BOWEN: Peter Dutton apparently feels it shouldn't be on the agenda. Well, that's a matter for him. He's doubling down on 10 years of denial, delay and distraction. That's okay, we're not. We're doubling on constructive engagement as a responsible international citizen, and Patricia, as the Prime Minister made a very clear and very strongly the point yesterday in Parliament, we also regard this as a matter of geopolitical national security. I mean, you know, the stability of our region comes very much down to cooperation on climate. We're back at the table. Peter Dutton really hasn't moved on from cracking jokes about the water lapping Pacific islands, frankly, which is a bit sad, but that's the reality.

KARVELAS: $700 million has been committed already to these sorts of issues in our region is what your government is arguing. Would any fund be additional to that? Or would you be arguing “well, that portion should be counted”?

BOWEN: Well, to be fair, Patricia, you're asking me to comment on how a fund will work that has not yet been established. And now we would work we're working through all these issues about both around climate financing, and we're stepping up with our Pacific financing facility. That's a big step forward. But you know, we recognise its further discussions to have with the Pacific. We want to make sure that anything works for them. You know, part of my role is working together with James Shaw in New Zealand is to ensure that the Pacific gets a strong voice, we want to ensure that their voices are heard. I don't want developed countries agreeing to some sort of mechanism, which means the Pacific misses out. I mean, the Pacific leaders have made clear to me, for example, they felt missed out in the past with the Green Climate Fund, for example. So all these issues need to be worked through in a joined up way. These are matters about, you know, adaptation, mitigation, and dealing with the impacts of climate change, particularly on small Pacific islands.

KARVELAS: You wouldn't put this on the agenda unless you took seriously what potential ramifications they'd be from it, right?

BOWEN: Well, yes, yes, Patricia, that is a valid point. Of course, we take seriously the ramifications all across the board. That's what we're doing. And that's what we'll continue to do. But with respect, Patricia, I think we’re just sort of getting a little bit ahead. For the first time now this is probably on the, it was in the Paris framework loss and damage as something to be dealt with at some point. Peter Dutton appears not to realise that. We realise that we are supportive of dealing with it, we've been talking to international colleagues about how to deal with it. We hope progress is made in Sharm el Sheikh next week. That's what I'll be doing when I arrive in Egypt, making a constructive engagement and approach to that discussion.

KARVELAS: Let's move to prices on energy. When will the government be able to announce exactly what it's going to do to curb gas prices? Because the head of Treasury has backed direct intervention into the market and suggested sharing some of those profits from energy companies with low-income households could be a mechanism? Is that something you back?

BOWEN: Well, as we've made very clear, we don't intend to just sit by and watch higher gas and coal prices to be fair, higher gas and coal prices which are flowing through and going to flow through to energy costs just to let that flow through to Australian industry and business. I mean, in December, the price of wholesale gas was $11.56 a gigajoule. Now it's $19.21. That's a big jump. And in coal, it was gone from $196 to $325. A huge jump.

Now, we have said the Prime Minister, the Treasurer, Me, Ed, Husic, Madeleine King, we've all said, we're not going to sit by just let that flow through. It is not the fault of Australian industry. It's not the fault of Australian consumers that Vladimir Putin has invaded Ukraine and energy has been weaponized around the world. So we're not going to let that happen. But by the same token, in a similar vein to my comments before, we have a government, which looks at matters methodically, carefully, and assesses the impacts of all our actions, we're not going to have, you know, 22, knee jerk energy policies, like the previous government. We will deal with emerging circumstances. I noted and obviously am aware of the comments of treasury yesterday, which are self-evidently very sensible, that these are all appropriate things for a sensible government to be considering. We will not, we will not wait a day longer than we need to and nor will you announce anything a day earlier than we are very confident that all the ramifications and issues had been carefully worked through a Cabinet process.

KARVELAS: If you cap power prices, which is on the table, would it reduce inflation?

BOWEN: Well, I don't want to sort of get into, you know, if you did this, or you did that, because, you know, frankly, we'll start playing the rule in-rule out game, which is not a conducive thing for you and me to discuss for your listeners to be subjected to over their breakfast, Patricia.

But clearly, our intention will be to ensure that energy prices don't rise by the amount that's indicated by the rise in gas and coal, which is being brought about by the international crisis, which governments around the world are dealing with. Again, the Opposition seems to think that Ukraine hasn't been invaded and coal and gas prices haven't gone up. They seem to think that this is all the fault of renewable energy, which again shows the 10 years of denial and delay is continuing into opposition. We're not doing that. But obviously energy prices impact on inflation. The Treasurer made it very clear in the lead up to the budget that the main inflationary pressure is energy prices in Australia. Hence, that's one of the reasons why we're going to deal with it.

KARVELAS: The ABC has been reporting one large New South Wales steel maker is being quoted $33 a gigajoule by Macquarie group for a year of gas in 2023, $35 from Origin and $46 from Shell, the company has been paying less than $10 this year. That puts hundreds of jobs at risk. Are you worried that there'll be job losses as a result?

BOWEN: In the absence of action? In the absence of action? Yes. And that's why that's why we've made it very clear that we do need to consider all options to ensure that industry and residents are shielded from the impacts of these global movements. And look, some people -- where you have elevated prices some people make more money, and other people have to pay more. It is not the fault of Australian industry and consumers that coal and gas prices have gone up the product, the price of production of those goods hasn't gone up. So of course, we are looking at sensible carefully designed, properly constructed interventions to ensure Australians are protected in this environment.

KARVELAS: Do you agree with Minister Husic that the numbers are just provided just there from this story demonstrate a glut of greed?

BOWEN: Well, I certainly agree that some people are making a profit out of this. Absolutely.

KARVELAS: Does that sound like greed to you? $33, $35, $46.

BOWEN: Patricia if you could, you've asked me a question, if you could with respect, let me finish it. I certainly agree that it is not appropriate that there be windfall profits as a result of an international war and that Australian consumers and industry pays the price for that. I absolutely agree with Minister Husic that this is an issue that needs to be addressed. Absolutely.

KARVELAS: Would you put a tax on them then? Windfall profit?

BOWEN: I think I just said before, I'm not going to start playing the rule in-rule out game, but there is a serious consideration by government to all sensible options, as you'd expect under a government that Anthony Albanese leads. He's made it very clear. We act but we act on careful advice and methodical approach. We don't do knee jerk sort of day to day, media announcements. We had 10 years of that. We consider all the evidence, and we intervene carefully, appropriately and swiftly.

KARVELAS: Thank you so much for joining us this morning.

BOWEN: Always a pleasure PK, have a good day.

KARVELAS: You too.