Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC Afternoon Briefing

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The government today has been keen to trumpet new data out that shows Australia's emissions reductions tracking well to hit its 2030 target of 43 per cent below 2005 levels. The Energy and Climate Change Minister, Chris Bowen, joined me a short time ago.

Minister, welcome to the program.

CHRIS BOWEN: Thanks, PK.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: We've got emissions reduction data out today. There's lots of positives in the data, but transport remains the main outlier, it seems, with emissions climbing, record diesel and also domestic aviation fuel use. Is that still a concern to you

CHRIS BOWEN: Much more work to do in transport. So, good, steady progress. Encouraging figures across the board. Six and a half million tonnes reduction in emissions in the year to March. Every sector down except for transport. So, I think we should acknowledge that first. Electricity, industry, stationary energy, all down. Transport up about half a million tonnes. The new vehicle efficiency standards haven't yet had an impact on emissions, as you'd understand, as you would expect, certainly in the year to March. We do have some encouraging signs that transport emissions will start to come down. But, you know, I'm the first to agree there's more to do. Aviation is what we call hard to abate. You know, we're going to do more work on low-carbon fuels, sustainable aviation fuels, for example, so we'll keep that work up. But yes, there's more to do on transport, but pretty encouraging progress by Australia and Australians, I'd say.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Now, Barnaby Joyce's bill was given time to be debated today. Why are you wasting the Parliament's time on something that there's no chance of getting up?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it's a very legitimate debate for the Parliament. If there's a side of politics, which now pretty much everyone in the LNP says they are, is against net zero. Let's have the debate. We're not shying away from that. It is, you know, yet again, another indication that the LNP just refuses to get their memo from the Australian people, including from regional voters. You know, I shared with the House today, the take-up of our cheaper home batteries policy in NSW - Gilmore number one, Richmond number two, Paige number three. Regional electorates getting on with the job, installing cheaper home batteries right across rural and regional Australia. Yes, there's legitimate questions about how and consultation and regional benefit, but still strong support for the transition. The National Party is just so far out of touch with their voters. They're dragging -

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But that's why you're having the debate, though. You're not going to get anything out at this point.

CHRIS BOWEN: It's Parliament House. We are meant to debate things, and this is, you know, one of the most important questions facing the country. So, why not? We didn't seek this debate. We didn't move the bill. Mr. Joyce did that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So many private members' bills that never get the light.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, well, there's private members' time for a reason. And, you know, we don't mind having that debate.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: All right, well, let's talk about the 2035 emissions reduction target. The United Nations Climate Summit is in Brazil in November, but António Guterres has made it quite clear that he wants countries like ours to go in September to the UN with a clear target. Is that what we'll do?

CHRIS BOWEN: I've made it crystal clear on a number of occasions that we'll release our 2035 target in September. That remains the position.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, is that the place where we will go?

CHRIS BOWEN: In September, there'll be - look, I say this, PK, there will be absolutely no shortage of climate news in September for you and I and everyone else to talk about. There's a whole range of reports that are imminent. Seting the 2035 target, I've not yet received the advice of the Climate Change Authority. It would be unlawful for me to set a target -

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I know, but can you just clarify for me, because the Climate Change Authority, Matt Kean's group, are going to be advising you on where they think you should land. I mean, that's clearly coming in September as well. So, what happens? You get that, and then automatically it goes to Cabinet?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, well, what happens is I will receive it. I will have a - well, obviously, we've already - had done a lot of thinking and work, but I haven't received the advice. I will then take a recommendation to the Cabinet under our Climate Change Act, which I think is, well, as best practice, I might say, for transparency and proper process. I mean, I think Australia and the UK are right up there together with Malta in terms of process for setting targets. I must receive the Climate Change Authority advice. It will be released to the public transparently. All that will be crystal clear. And all that will occur during September.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. And that will all be defined in that sort of time frame. Just talk to me about where you land. Does it have to be a percentage figure, one figure, or can it be a range?

CHRIS BOWEN: I'm not going to start preempting, but -

PATRICIA KARVELAS: No, not the parameters. You're not going to tell me, but is a range acceptable?

CHRIS BOWEN: Some countries have set ranges, and some countries have set exact numbers. It's up to the country as to how they [indistinct].

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But do you think a range is acceptable?

CHRIS BOWEN: I'm not going to, well, I'm not going to - plenty of countries have set a range.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And do you think that's appropriate?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I'm certainly not critical of those countries that have done it, no.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: No.

CHRIS BOWEN: So, that's an option. But let's, let's work through the advice and then, as I said, I'll come back on the show. There'll be more than I talk about.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But I do think that range is interesting because the 2030 target wasn't just a range. So, it would be a different approach if you were to -

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, look, again, I stress nothing I say should be read as, you know, looking forward to what the target will be. But countries respond to climate change circumstances. Is what we do in 2035 exactly the same as what we did for 2030? Of course not. Circumstances...

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, does a range give you then that ability to sort of operate within, you know, the changes that happen in the economy?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, self-evidently, those countries that set a range, say, well, this is, you know, the bottom end is, is what we think might be, you know, at the achievable end, and the top end is what might be the ambitious end. But you know, again, a couple of weeks' work to do yet. But, I think it's not far along. Not far, not far to go. Very legitimate question.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just to get on the record that you don't think that such an approach is unacceptable in Australia?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, clearly other countries have done that, you know.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Tony Abbott did it.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, he had 26 to 28. The problem with Tony Abbott's target was not that it was a range; it was that it was far too low.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Yeah. Yes, that was your critique, that's for sure. Look, the Greens will move to establish an inquiry into Labor's secrecy. There has been a lot of secrecy on the climate risk assessment. Why not just release it?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, there's two documents. The National Climate Risk Assessment, the National Adaptation Plan. They are linked. They will be released together because the National Climate Risk Assessment informs the National Adaptation Plan. Why are we having this conversation, PK? It's just worth saying again, legitimate question, but because we initiated this process, the Labor Party, the government. Not because the Greens or anyone else said we should do this. The Albanese Government said we're going to have a National Risk Assessment and a National Adaptation Plan again during September. All that will be out, the National Risk Assessment is a report to government. Again, I'm not going to preempt what it says, but -

PATRICIA KARVELAS: It will all be released?

CHRIS BOWEN: Of course.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And that's a guarantee?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yes, of course. It's always been - yes, absolutely.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And in September, both of those reports.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yes.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, the Greens want it, obviously, revealed?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah. They wanted it yesterday, and I understand. And they're doing their thing, and that's ok. But I'm responsible for government policy.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Sure. Let me ask it this way, then. Given the assessment that it, you know, there's a lot of, as you know, leaking about what might be in it.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I've seen commentary. I've seen some commentary.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Why not let Australians have a look?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, we will be. But we will be.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Before you make any ultimate decision on the reduction target?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, because what we'll be doing is laying out very methodically, not all on one day, but, you know, very methodically. What we have is, as I said, a lot of moving parts at the moment. There's a National Risk Assessment, National Adaptation Plan, 2035 target, National Net Zero Plan, six sector plans, the COP bid, all leading up to the COP30 in Brazil, as you pointed out. September will be a very, very busy month for those interested in climate, particularly me, and particularly those of you who want to talk to me about those things.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Ok. In terms of ambition, the latest Resolve Political Monitor shows that voters are open to an ambitious target. Does that give you comfort to go hard?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, we don't set targets based on opinion polls. I've read it. I'm not going to pretend -

PATRICIA KARVELAS: You have read it. 

CHRIS BOWEN: I'm not going to pretend I haven't read it or I'm not interested. But we set targets based on the science and the evidence about what's achievable. I think in all seriousness that poll is a reminder that the Australian people instructed us on May 3rd to get on with the job. They want us to keep getting on with the job. That's what we're doing. I mean, we went to the election with a Cheaper Home Batteries Policy. 37,592 batteries rolled out since the 1st of July. That's getting on with the job. The emissions reduction that we've released today, 6.5 million tonnes, that's getting on with the job. And the 2035 target and those other things should be seen as part of getting on the job.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Ok. The electric vehicle road user charge - always takes a while to say - that looks all but guaranteed. But we're in the early adopter phase of EVs. Isn't that going to put a brake on the take-up of EVs?

CHRIS BOWEN: I would draw your attention to what the Treasurer has said, which is that there's a lot of work to do here yet, this is not a done deal. There's a lot of work to do. We accept this is a legitimate question, and we accept that petrol tax is going to go down and it needs to be replaced.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Don't we need a road user charge, though? Agnostic, rather than targeting it this way.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, there's a number of ways you can communicate it or say it, but really everyone's saying the same thing. Yes, over time, petrol tax is going to reduce, electric vehicle take-up will increase. We need to ensure ongoing revenue base to support government services, including road funding. It is not a simple equation. It is not. No one has suggested it is.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But do you see that going down a sort of narrow road, where it's targeting EVs, will have an impact?

CHRIS BOWEN: I see it as part of the - 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: People will buy hybrids, won't they?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, let's not get ahead of how this process resolves itself or when it resolves itself. It is not, you know, going to be resolved in the coming weeks; there'll be further discussions. The states are doing a discussion paper. The Federal Cabinet will take its time to work through - 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And you've spoken to the Treasurer about your concern about EV take-up?

CHRIS BOWEN: The Treasurer and I work closely together and talk about these things all the time. And with Catherine King, he's made that clear on Insiders. He was working with me and Catherine King. He's made clear on a number of occasions that this has a long way to go. People shouldn't think that this is, you know, a decided government policy.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Right. So, the government has an open mind about the model.

CHRIS BOWEN: We have always said - back from our Opposition days, when Anthony Albanese was the Shadow Transport Minister and I was the Shadow Treasurer, we said road user charging's, time will come. You know, we never ruled it out, we never played politics with it, we never said that the Liberals even talking about it was a disaster. Its time will come, but it does need to be very, very carefully worked through.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Chris Bowen, thanks for coming in.

CHRIS BOWEN: Great, PK.