Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC Radio National

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Chris Bowen is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy and he's with me in our Parliament House studio, which is always exciting. Chris Bowen, Minister, welcome. 

CHRIS BOWEN: Great to see you in person PK, good to be back with you. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Now last night, the Prime Minister made it clear the Government is not prepared to agree to either of the main demands that have been made by the Greens. Do you believe they will support the legislation? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, let's just go through a couple of things. Patricia, we're introducing the legislation today in the lower house. It's an important day, the Australian people voted for action on climate change on May 21 and now the Parliament has a chance to vote for action on climate change. It's a good bill. It's a framework that enshrines our emissions into—our emissions reductions targets into law, empowers the Climate Change Authority independently to advise Government, holds us accountable with annual report to Parliament, all those things. Now, I'm introducing it today so there's some way to go but to your question, the two parts to your question if you like, the Prime Minister last night repeated what he and I have said, repeatedly ad nauseam, that any discussions across a Parliament will be based on the framework of us implementing our election agenda. We got a mandate for 43, we sought one and got one, we got a mandate for a whole range of policies. There are things we didn't get a mandate for and we won't be contemplating those. 
Having said that, of course, a sensible Government of grown-ups will have discussions across the Parliament, with people of goodwill about what we can work on together, that are complementary and consistent with our mandate. Now, unfortunately, PK that won't include the Opposition, because the Leader of the Opposition has ruled himself out of those discussions. He hasn't seen the bill, he hasn't been to his Shadow Cabinet, hasn't been to his party room, but he knows its action on climate change so it's against it. They haven't got the memo, same old Liberal Party, but across the Parliament, we will work with people of good faith, if they have sensible suggestions and we've done that, that are consistent with the mandate that we sought and received.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Ok, let’s go to that, because what are the concessions are you prepared to make? For instance, the climate trigger to be included in the Environmental Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act? So if a new project basically has to be assessed by climate change impact, why isn't that sensible? 

CHRIS BOWEN: And I know Tanya spoken to you about that in the past and about Samuel review that's looked at that and we're implementing the Samuel review, there's so that's our position on that. Now, in relation to discussions, again, crossbenchers and the Greens and others. We have been talking to them. They've made suggestions about things like making things more explicit that were already in the bill, like the fact that the Paris mechanism always requires the next emissions target to be higher than the last emissions target. We've made that explicit, fair enough. Good contribution, good, good faith discussion. We've put Paris in the objects of the act of complying with the Paris temperature targets, etc. Working towards that as in the objectives of the Act, that's a good suggestion. We've taken that on board, again, in good faith. 
But within the framework, Anthony, and I put out this policy in December, very early open for discussion with you. I was on your show, I don't know 20 times talking about it. We've got a clear mandate to do this. So we're going-- we're getting on with the job of doing it indeed, PK as you know, we've already notified the UN of the target. We've already changed the mandate of ARENA to get its focus back on renewables, we've already reduced the amount of sulphur, signed the regulations to reduce the amount of sulphur in our petrol, we're already dealing with Australian carbon credits market to make sure that has integrity and are seen to have integrity. So we're getting on with the job. But this legislation, while it's not absolutely essential, and it isn't, for the reasons I've outlined, it is best practice, mainly to send the message to investors that Australia has a stable framework, the days of 22 energy policies and chopping and changing are over. We've got one energy policy, and the Parliament has legislated it to give those investors’ confidence for the future. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Why are you sending the message out today that you can walk away, that it's not absolutely essential? Because I've noticed that that has been a focus of what you've been saying. Are you worried about perceptions that you were doing a deal with the Greens?

CHRIS BOWEN: Hang on, to be fair PK, that isn't new. I mean, I said that on your show. I remember it was on your show, 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I’m not saying you’ve never said it but it’s all about emphasis. 

CHRIS BOWEN: I think to be fair, what we're doing is explaining in as a holistic way as we can what our approach is. I said before the election, I think I remember on the show, you asked me you know about 43% legislation, and I said to you, well, it's not absolutely essential. We don't need it, we could walk away if we needed to, but will seek to legislate. Nothing has changed here. So that's not a change of position. Yes, you asked me about that. That remains our position and remains the fact but also it remains the fact that where the Parliament can come together and I think the Australian people, you know, want us to do this, can come together on matters we can agree on and work together on constructively. We will do that within the framework of our mandate. Prime Minister and I have said that at nauseam repeatedly, that's what the Australian people voted for I think; a Government of grownups and now we have a Government of grownups, which is getting on with their jobs.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Yesterday, you raise the prospect of more ambitious 2035 and even 2040 targets, when would the Government look to set those targets?

CHRIS BOWEN: Oh look again, nothing really new there, of course, we're going to have 2035 and 2040 targets and of course, they will be higher than the last ones. That's the way the system works now.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: How much higher though has an impact on the economy. 

CHRIS BOWEN: Fair go PK, I'm introducing the 2030 target legislation today. So one step at a time. Let's get that legislated. Then, as I've said, there'll be a process that we will empower the climate change authority to consult about future targets, advise Government when we're ready. When it's time to make a 2035 total commitment I'll take that to the cabinet and work it through just like I took our 43% commitment to the Shadow Cabinet at the time in the day. I will take that to the Cabinet and work it through in due course. But fair go, one step at a time, 2030 is the legislation we're introducing today.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Some opposition MPs have flagged that they're prepared to cross the floor. Yesterday on this program, Bridget Archer revealing that about her own actions. Now she's in the lower house, it has less of an impact, obviously in the Senate, it would be quite a thing. Have you reached out to any of them? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Any discussions I've had with members of the Liberal Party at this stage remain confidential. Patricia, that's important in this building. Those people approached you confidentially. You respect that. And certainly, 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So you have been approached?

CHRIS BOWEN: I'm not about to …

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I’m not asking you to reveal names. Have you been approached? 

CHRIS BOWEN: I'm not I'm not about to talk about conversations, that if those conversations should remain on the basis that they are confidential, but I do understand people have good conscience. And there are you know, some people in the Liberal Party who get it and who get that the modern Liberal party is so out of touch. This is the modern Liberal party unfortunately for Australia, this once great party. It's changed from Morrison to Dutton but really nothing has changed. They don't get action on climate. They don't think Australia needs action on climate. They don't see the jobs opportunity from action on climate. They don't see the investment opportunity. They haven't gotten the memo. They haven't changed. It's the same old Liberal Party. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. So in terms of your negotiations with the Greens leader who's been empowered to negotiate, have you been explicit with him and said that those demands, the ones that yesterday he said, you know, it's to me, he described it as a hurdle, the opening up of gas and coal projects. Have you said to him, no chance not looking at it?

CHRIS BOWEN: Discussions reflect the public position. So yes, is the answer. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: You're not looking at it?

CHRIS BOWEN: We have said publicly and privately, we have said the things that we regard we have a mandate for things. The things that we don't think we have a mandate for i.e. things that the Greens are asking for that weren’t our policy, we will not move on. And to be fair to Adam, his private position reflects his public position as well. But again, as I said, there are things where people of good faith can look at working together. But the conversations that I've had across the crossbench reflect the fact that we will implement the mandate we sought and received.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The Australian Energy Regulator is investigating the level of financial stress retailers were under when they urged customers to leave last month. What will the consequences be for companies that are found to have gamed the system? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, there are substantial penalties under the various acts for not behaving properly in the market for energy companies. I'm not going to go into the details of that Patricia because the Australian Energy Regulator, it's an independent regulator is doing their job. I will say Clare Savage, as a regulator is a first class regulator. She has my absolute respect and confidence. She has been very active in recent weeks and months as we move through this energy crisis, working very closely with Daniel Westerman the Chief Executive of the Operator to ensure that the energy market puts consumers first. So she has a job to do as the energy regulator, I'm not going to sort of run a daily commentary on that job, other than to say she has my 100% support with all the powers of law, she has to ensure that every participant in the energy market is behaving properly in accordance with the law, and that consumers rights are protected and defended. That's her job. And she's doing it very, very well. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Will the Government seek assurances from gas producers that they won't boost exports at the expense of domestic users on the back of the European Union's decision to reduce Russian gas imports by 15%? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, that's a constant theme of the discussions that Madeleine King the Minister for Resources and I have with the gas companies. Of course, you know, they are market participants, and they run their companies in a way in accordance with their obligations to their shareholders. Having said that, we regularly in a respectful and constructive way reminding them of their social licence. This is Australian gas and we expect the Australian market to be properly supplied. That's been something we've had to do since day one unfortunately. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But is that now going to become even more urgent given this European Union decision?

CHRIS BOWEN: It's been important and urgent from the day we were was sworn in. I mean, I literally left the swearing in to come and deal with this crisis. Literally, you know, I was getting text messages during the swearing in. That's the level of the mess that the previous Government left us, Madeleine and I had been working very closely and working wherever necessary to talk to gas companies to remind them of the social license, it might not be in all senses a legal obligation, but it is a social license obligation. And, of course, in relation to legal obligations we have previously announced we're looking at reform of the various mechanisms and triggers that are available to ensure that they fit for purpose. And I'm sure Madeleine will have more to say about that in due course 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Chris Bowen, first Question Time today for your Government. I know there's been a lot of gaming and practising, which happens for all Governments can I say before you know 

CHRIS BOWEN: You wouldn't want us to work in walking and then working out what to say.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: We work it out what we're doing here on RN breakfast, too, so it makes sense to me that you work it out. Are we going to hear less sledging of the Opposition. It was constant a sledgefest in the last Parliament. I found it quite unedifying. 

CHRIS BOWEN: I think the difference Patricia is under the last Government, it was basically all you got, you know, there'll be a question and there'd be three seconds of the Government doing this and then three minutes of why the Labor Party was an affront to humanity. You won’t see that. You will see a robust debate, though. And, you know, this is a contest of ideas and records, frankly, and in my space, the Government, the former Government has an appalling record. And if I'm, I have a position-- if I have an opportunity, in the context of what we're doing and explaining what we're doing and getting on with it, to remind people the appalling record of the previous Government, I think that's fair enough, but it won't be the sort of all we do focus as it was under the previous Government. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Chris Bowen, thanks for your time. 

CHRIS BOWEN: Nice to chat PK.