Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC Radio National

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Chris Bowen is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy and is negotiating with the Greens on this legislation, the Safeguard Mechanism as it's known. Welcome to Breakfast Chris Bowen.

CHRIS BOWEN: Thanks for having me PK, good morning to you and to everyone else.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: If the only way to get your legislation through is by banning new investments in coal and gas, why don't you do it?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, we won't be doing that, PK, but let's just look at what we're dealing with here and then talk about the process going forward. The SafeguardS Mechanism reform that we're putting forward is a big deal. It will require 205,000,000 tonnes of emissions to come out of the system by 2030. This is no small thing. It covers 28% of our emissions. You don't reduce emissions, you don't reach our target unless you're dealing with the biggest emitters. And the biggest emitters covered by this are not just coal and gas, but it's aluminium, steel, other things. So we need to get the balance right. And I believe the package we're putting forward does get that balance right.

It is a very big package, ambitious package. Now, the Greens have different views, that's fine. But we are putting this package forward and I believe the parliament that was elected last May was elected to get things done in climate change. That's what we've done since May. Passing our climate change bill, passing our EV tax cut, getting all these things done. And that's the approach that we, the government and I, as the relevant Minister, will continue to take.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: If that means that you won't support this particular demand of the Greens, are you willing to see legislation fall over?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I don't believe it will get to that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Why not? Because they're saying, that’s all they’re asking for.

CHRIS BOWEN: I welcome Adam's confirmation this morning, in his words that this is an offer, not an ultimatum. I think that's the spirit in which this should be approached, that's the spirit in which it should be dealt with. And that's the spirit in which we've dealt with everything in the climate change space since last May. I mean, this is a common situation, PK. I've come on this show and you said to me, “Chris, you're not going to get your climate change bill through because the Liberals say it goes too far and the Greens say it doesn't go far enough”. And I say we're a government of adults, mature people, working in good faith across the parliament. We will get things done. Same with our EV tax cut. It originally didn't have support. Same with our energy bill relief package. It originally didn't have the numbers. We work it through, we get it done. That's what governments of good faith do. I believe that's what this parliament was elected to do.

I would be astounded, Patricia, if the Senate, with the numbers that it has, with the combination of progressive forces that it has, would say no to the biggest emissions reduction. The only chance for big emissions reduction from our big industrial emitters, that is 28% of our economy. I don't believe it will get to that. Now, in terms of details, on January 9th, I announced the detailed package. I also said that it was open for consultation. There's people putting in submissions as we speak. That's the way we like to do business. Put it out, get feedback. I read all the submissions, work through all the issues, see if there are any changes necessary, take on board the feedback. That's exactly how I've approached every single policy, big policy that we've done. Those submissions are open until the end of February, so there's some way to go yet. And we will work, as I said, with people of good faith. Now, who is not a good faith here is the Liberal and National Party, the yeah nah Coalition, who looks at every particular policy proposal -

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay, I understand you want to make that political point.

CHRIS BOWEN: No it's an important point Patricia because that's why we're in this situation. Now, the Greens are not doing that. They have said that they want to see this pass or that they are willing to discuss seeing this passed at least I don't want to put words in their mouth. That's a good thing.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Let me get in there. I've edged in and I'm in. You say you're comforted by the words. It's an offer, not an ultimatum. What does that mean to you when they say it's an offer? How can you negotiate on that? Because it seems like a pretty big deal. No new coal and gas. How can you meet them somehow on that objective? Can you put a sort of time limit on how long you have coal and gas? Is that on the table?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I'm not going to have these discussions, with all due respect, Patricia, through you. That's not how we do that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: If you could give me some ideas about what you think you could do to try to meet them because you're saying it's a negotiation, where are you willing to negotiate?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, everything that we consider will be in keeping with our government's approach in our election mandate, nothing more, nothing less. We went to the people seeking a mandate. That's what we'll implement. Now, just as with the other things that we've done that we've gotten through the parliament, like the Climate Change Act, where there are suggestions or requests which I think make sense and are in keeping with our mandate and add or complement to what we're trying to do, then I'm all ears.

Where somebody says, look, we really want you to break this election commitment, then sorry, no, we'll move on to the next topic because we won't be doing that. And I think, as I've said, Patricia, I think our track record as a government under Anthony's leadership of mature, sensible adults willing to talk to people of good faith, I believe that's our track record and I believe that track record will continue.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I watch Question Time closely. There was some pretty big rhetoric being used by frontbenchers like Tanya Plibersek about the Greens. Is that your way of sweet-talking the Greens? To shame them?

CHRIS BOWEN: If it did fail the Senate, which I don't think it would, but if it did fail the Senate, people would be accountable, including Green senators, if they voted against it. Accountable for standing in the way of the best chance of reducing emissions in almost a third of our economy. And that is a very legitimate thing to point out, that we don't want to return to the days of 2009, as I think you've put it this morning, where sensible policy was killed for the sake of ideology. Now, I don't believe that's what we'll get to. I don't believe that's Mr Bandt's intention, but obviously he's entitled, as the leader of the Greens, to put forward a position. I respect that. It's not a position we agree with, but it is something that I'm more than happy to continue to discuss, with people of good faith in Parliament.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Would you discuss, for instance, a time limit on coal and gas?

CHRIS BOWEN: I think I just indicated, Patricia, that, one, I'm not negotiating in a radio studio or discussing in a radio studio. And two, anything we agreed to would be complementary to what we're trying to achieve, not contradictory. And in keeping with our election mandate. Call me old-fashioned Patricia I take that mandate seriously.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I want to challenge the notion of a mandate, actually, because you don't have a majority in the Senate. Our system works where you have to get legislation through both houses, which you clearly know, but just making it clear. So you do need the Greens, you actually need these guys. You don't have a mandate to get it through the Parliament as it stands.

CHRIS BOWEN: I don't accept your concept, with respect, Patricia, of a mandate, but I do respect, I do accept that we need to work issues through the Senate. That's what we've done since May. With respect, Patricia, that's what the Labor Party has done. We haven't had a majority in the Senate since the 1st of July 1951. But we've got a few things through Labor governments in that time because we know how to work with people to get things done. But we also do that in keeping with our own values, with our own policy positions and what we took to the people. And that's actually important to us.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just returning to the politics, given you're not giving me much detail. I am trying, a lot of my listeners want the detail of what it might look like, but just the politics.

CHRIS BOWEN: There's plenty of detail in terms of the proposal.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The proposal, but I'm talking about the things that you might shift on, but just on the actual politics here. You say if the Greens voted against it, they'd have to deal with the political ramifications. Well, actually, the Greens leader, Adam Bandt, says to me, you're going to have to deal with the ramifications in and he named the seats: Tanya Plibersek’s seats, other seats where obviously climate change is a red hot issue.

CHRIS BOWEN: Absolutely. And people in those seats, with respect, Patricia, want to see progress and action. They want parties working to get things done.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But do you think they want to see more coal and gas?

CHRIS BOWEN: I think what they want to see is emissions come down. That's what they want to see and that's what this package delivers. It's no small thing. 205 million tonnes, which is equivalent to two-thirds of the cars on the road. Now, people can say, oh, that's not good enough, we want more. But here is a government getting on with the job. This is not a slogan, this is a meaty policy. This is a big piece of meaty, substantial, practical policy. That's what I'm here to do.

I'm not here to engage in slogans, I'm here to get things done. That's what we've done, passing the Climate Change Act. That's what we've done, passing the electric vehicle tax cut. That's what we've done negotiating with the states and territories unanimous support for our proposal for a capacity investment mechanism for dispatchable renewable energy. That's what we've done with Rewiring the Nation, getting deals away with the governments of Victoria, New South Wales and Tasmania and more become to build the new renewable infrastructure. These are the things we have done since May and we'll continue with that agenda of progress, practical progress. And getting emissions down and achieving our targets is what's important.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Let me ask this really simple question. Why do you need to have the right to approve new coal and gas? Why is that necessary?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, as we've shown, we will take our responsibilities very seriously. Tanya Plibersek, in her normal, very diligent and comprehensive way, has been dealing with environmental approvals, including rejecting a coal mine. I've been working on a policy to get emissions down, not just from new facilities, not just from coal and gas, from every facility, old and new, regardless of what it is, if it's a big emitter, that's what this policy is designed to do. It's not designed to single out one particular sector. I want 205 million tonnes of emissions out of our atmosphere under this policy. That's what I intend to achieve. It's no small feat. A 4.9% emissions reduction each and every year is no small thing that we will require. I want to provide the incentive for firms to invest in new technology.

Some of the firms, Patricia, don't have readily available technology for emissions reduction right now. We have to accept that, with the best will in the world, some facilities have a capacity to reduce emissions right now, others will struggle. I want to provide the incentive for them to find ways of reducing emissions. That means providing some flexibility as we go about this. We'll work with people of goodwill right across the industrial sector. I've been doing that since last May the amount of work that's gone into this policy, Patricia, is enormous. We've had two consultation papers. One seeking feedback, one putting this policy position detailed design forward, seeking feedback. That process is still underway. There's still submissions coming through. I'll read every single submission. I've met with many stakeholders. Some people say our policy goes too far. Others say it goes not far enough. Welcome to climate change policy, that is inevitable.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Sounding to me like the climate wars aren't over, Chris Bowen we are out of time.

CHRIS BOWEN: They’re in retreat, Patricia. They're in retreat because we are determined to get things done.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Not convinced of that, but I know that that's your goal. Chris Bowen, we're out of time. Thanks so much for joining us.

CHRIS BOWEN: Always great fun, Patricia. Good on you.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Chris Bowen is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy.