Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC Radio National

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Peter Dutton has promised to release the figures for the Coalition's nuclear power plan this week. The Leader of the Opposition says it will cost less than Labor's plan to transition to renewables with a mix.

A new report out today by the CSIRO and the Energy Market Operator might have some answers to whose plan will cost less by comparing the average cost of electricity from different power sources.

Joining me now is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy Chris Bowen, welcome to the program

CHRIS BOWEN: Good morning, Patricia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Before we get to that report, I just have to ask you about the conversation I was just having with James Paterson, the Shadow Home Affairs Minister. Anthony Albanese has now labelled the arson attack on the Adass Israel synagogue in Melbourne as an act of terrorism. Is it an act of terrorism?

CHRIS BOWEN: I agree with the Prime Minister now, but I thought this interview you had with James Paterson was extraordinary. I think frankly Peter Dutton's comments over the weekend have also been extraordinary.

Let's be clear, Patricia, about a couple of things. The attack on the Melbourne synagogue was unspeakable, it was horrendous, and it has no place in modern Australia. The Prime Minister and all senior members of the government have been very clear on that.

The attack on the synagogue is the fault of the person who attacked the synagogue. For the Opposition to try and sow discord and make political points is absolutely disgusting. One of the lowest things I've seen in my time in politics. And James Paterson and Peter Dutton need to have a good look at themselves. This is a moment for national unity, and they have not risen to the moment.

Now there is a place for leaders to call these things out. The Prime Minister, as you pointed out I thought very well, Patricia, has done that consistently. There's also a place for leaders to set new laws. That's why this Government in one of our last acts of the Parliament, in one of the 45 bills we passed, passed the anti doxxing bill, now the anti doxxing Act, had been used against Jewish Australians. The Opposition opposed that. That was an extraordinary thing for a party that says it cares about antisemitism to do.

And for James Paterson to suggest, as he just did a few minutes ago, that the Prime Minister and the Home Affairs Minister should be sitting down with the Federal Police and instructing them about who to arrest and what to prioritise, I thought was just an unbelievable misunderstanding deliberately of the separation of powers between politicians and the police.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well he clarified that. He clarified that, to be fair, because I did say that "Is it the job of the Prime Minister to be arresting people?" He said it's about setting the direction.

CHRIS BOWEN: No, it's the job of the Prime Minister and the Parliament to set the laws, and it's the job of the Australian Federal Police to enforce the laws.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay, so there is a view –

CHRIS BOWEN: And it is not the job of the Prime Minister to sit down, or the Home Affairs Minister, to sit down with the AFP, "Now we want you to prioritise this law but not that law".

PATRICIA KARVELAS: No, but there is – there is a role, isn't there, for law enforcement to be really dealing with extremism, and there is a view, clearly, from the Jewish community expressed very strongly, that they feel like there has been not enough of an effort to clamp down on some of this. Do you think there needs to be an acceleration of efforts to do that?

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, National Cabinet, the Prime Minister and States already meet regularly, there's already an antiterrorism task force across jurisdictions, across law enforcement agencies. That's appropriate, it will continue to operate, and where there is a view that more that can or should be done, it will be done. But I don't accept –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But aren't we there now? I mean this is quite significant.

CHRIS BOWEN: Patricia, of course it is, Patricia, and governments will respond accordingly. Any government would, to be fair, a Labor Government would, a Liberal Government would. This is not and shouldn't be a matter of partisan politics. Antisemitism has no place in Australia. And by the way, I will not accept the premise that James Paterson just put on that it's wrong for anybody to say antisemitism has no role to play in Australia, or Islamophobia has no role to play in Australia, racism has no role to play in Australia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: That's not what he said though. That's actually not what he said –

CHRIS BOWEN: I was listening. I was listening.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So was I. So was I and I was scrutinising him, which is my job, and now I'm doing the same with you, right.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yes, yes.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And what he did say was that you don't have to qualify every time when there is a specific act.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, well he said a lot of things. He said that they shouldn't be, that Islamophobia shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as the Prime Minister has done. If James Paterson thinks there's no Islamophobia in Australia, he's wrong.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: He didn't say that though. He said that when something happens it should be enough to just denounce antisemitism.

CHRIS BOWEN: No, he went on to say that they're not at the same levels. Look, but the point I make is – 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But hang on a minute. Are you saying they are at the same levels? Because we've just seen a targeted attack on a synagogue –

CHRIS BOWEN: I'm saying, Patricia, that both exist and I'm saying that both can be called out and it is not diminishing one or the other to say that, as the Prime Minister has done.

The Prime Minister has brought leadership to this matter. He has tried to provide a moment of national unity. Peter Dutton has brought politics, points scoring and a disgusting low-rank approach to this matter.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So what happens next? I mean why hasn't any Senior Cabinet Minister gone yet to where this happened?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well the Prime Minister's been in Perth over the weekend. That's, you know, a long-standing engagement. He's been engaging with the Jewish community. He made that clear. He's been talking on the phone. I understand he has visited a synagogue.

So, look, politicians, the Prime Minister included, will respond, you know, in the circumstances in the context in which they're dealing, where they are in the country at that particular time. Josh Burns the local member has been providing local leadership, as is appropriate. The Prime Minister made clear his views that it is an act of terror.

I know a little bit about this, Patricia, because of the recent event in my community in the Wakeley stabbing. I have some experience of this. The declaration of an act of terror is one for the Police Commissioner, it impacts on the Police Commissioner's powers. There's a process to be followed. The Prime Minister's made his views clear but he's not the Police Commissioner of Victoria. There is a process to be followed.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Let's move to this report out today if we can, Chris Bowen. And if you're just tuning in, Chris Bowen, the Climate Change Minister is my guest. This GenCost report out today. What is it telling us about the rapidly changing costs associated with electricity generation technologies, particularly renewables like solar and wind?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, it's confirming what we already knew, Patricia. The science, you know, is very, very clear about this. It's confirming that renewables, including the cost of batteries and transmission and peaking, it is much, much cheaper than nuclear. Indeed, cheaper than coal and gas. I think the important new part of this report is that the CSIRO and AEMO, quite appropriately, looked at the criticisms of their previous work by Ted O'Brien, thought about those criticisms, analysed those criticisms, and found that those criticisms don't stack up. Quite a detailed analysis of those criticisms in this report.

Mr O'Brien and the Liberals said CSIRO hadn't undertaken or hadn't considered the longer life of nuclear reactors and the CSIRO finds, and I quote, "Even accounting for the fact that short-term technologies need to be built twice to achieve the same life, similar cost savings are achievable from those technologies". 

In addition, Mr O'Brien said the capacity factor should be 93 per cent, CSIRO and AEMO found, and I quote, "This is not supported by the evidence". 

So, you know, the difference between my approach and my counterparts is that I don't think I know more than the CSIRO. I accept the CSIRO's expertise. I don't second-guess them. I work with the experts and the agencies, and I take their advice. Mr O'Brien and Mr Dutton think they know better than the CSIRO and AEMO.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, one of the points that Peter Dutton has made, and the Opposition has made, and they base it on modelling from Frontier Economics, is that your plan, which involves a big shift to renewables, is going to cost $600 billion, and that you haven't been transparent enough about the full cost of what that transition will look like. Don't we need to compare that fuller cost, because it obviously is a big process of change?

CHRIS BOWEN: Sure. Well, I don't think I really take commentary from the Opposition about the transparency of costs when six months after they announced seven sites, they haven't announced a single costing. I've read the Frontier costing. What it does is, firstly, accept AEMO's work, but then just assumes that transmission will be double. Just a straight assumption says transmission will cost double. Well, that doesn't have much science or rigour to it.

Also, if I could just say, it forward flags their Frontier work. The nuclear costing says nuclear will need less transmission. Well, if that's the way Mr O'Brien's doing his costings, his costings are dead before arrival. Before arrival, Patricia. Because the transmission lines from the proposed nuclear sites are full. If they're just going to assert that they don't need new transmission, that's false assumption and their costing will be dead before they deliver it.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The annual GenCost report was heavily criticised by nuclear advocates last year. They have concerns about the way that you've actually framed that this has all been framed. Do you accept their critique that you have not – not you, sorry, specifically, I should be very clear about that.

CHRIS BOWEN: I was about to make that point, Patricia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I knew, so I misspoke or just incorrectly spoke.

CHRIS BOWEN: Fair enough.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But that –

CHRIS BOWEN: No, no, you're not the – just to be clear on that. I mean Mr O'Brien calls this Labor's GenCost, it's an entirely improper frame for him to apply. GenCost was started by the previous Government in 2017. We never second guessed it when we were in Opposition. When the CSIRO and AEMO was doing this work for the then government. This is an independent – I don't –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay, let me put this to you though.

CHRIS BOWEN: I have no role [indistinct].

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The nuclear development lead time should be 10 to 15 years, right, not 15 years or greater as proposed by GenCost, for instance? That's the critique. Do you accept that it's not actually entirely accurate to what they say their plan is? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, they can say their plan is that the sky's pink, Patricia, it doesn't make it realistic or achievable. GenCost again, the CSIRO and AEMO, have done a substantial amount of work on the delays, on how long it takes to build nuclear power stations. CSIRO and AEMO are not the only people. Basically, every expert in the world thinks that the Opposition's plans are wildly realistic – wildly optimistic, I should say.

Look, here's the thing, Patricia. Even if you take Mr O'Brien at his word, that he could get a nuclear reactor by 2037, I mean it's 2024. We need new power today. We need more electricity on today. That's what we're doing.

This is a record year for renewable energy connections in Australia. More renewable energy connected this year than any other year in Australian history. I mean we're doing this today and Mr O'Brien says, "No, no, we don't want that. We can wait till 2037". Now 2037 is not realistic, it's wildly optimistic. CSIRO says so, AEMO says so, every expert says so. But even if it's right, it's too late.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: We're out of time. Thank you so much for joining us this morning.

CHRIS BOWEN: Good on you, PK.