Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC Radio National Australia

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Chris Bowen is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, and he joins us this morning. Welcome back to the program.

CHRIS BOWEN: Good to be back PK, good morning.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Now the Coalition has been really campaigning against these standards. The Greens were prepared to support the model that you'd originally put, so how are you going to get this through?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, this is a version of the same conversation, PK, you and I have had for 18 months; you asked me the same question when we introduced the Climate Change Act. I said we would work with the Parliament to get it through; you said we didn't have the numbers at the time, and you were right, and we passed it.

It's the same question you put to me on safeguards, where we worked with the Parliament to pass it. We passed every piece of climate legislation this Government has put in to the Parliament in the last 18 months. None of them have had the support of the Coalition, because they don't believe in action on climate change, but I have worked across the Parliament with the crossbench in good faith to get legislation through.

That's what I'll do in this instance with Catherine King, the Transport Minister, as well, because this is too important, PK, this has been in the too hard basket in Australia for 20 years. Multiple Liberal Governments have promised to do it in the past, and then they've squibbed it.

We have promised to do it, and we intend to implement it. As you said in your introduction, although I wouldn't have put it exactly the same way as you did--   

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Fair enough.

CHRIS BOWEN: --we had a preferred model, we consulted on that preferred model, we worked with people of good faith in the industry who said, "we agree with what you're trying to do here, but here's some ideas about how it could be implemented more easily by us and more smoothly," and where we're seen a good idea, we've listened to that. Not everyone got everything they wanted; there were people who wanted us to go harder and faster, there were people who wanted us to go slower and softer. We've done neither of those things, but we have listened to people, and we've introduced some sensible, what I would call modest but meaningful changes to the model to make sure it's implemented as smoothly as it can be, because it is a big reform.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. So based on the past precedents that you've just identified, and you say not getting support from the Liberal Party, that means you need a pathway through with the Greens. Are you willing to negotiate further, or is this the final offer?

CHRIS BOWEN: No, this is what we're putting to the Parliament, and this is what we intend to legislate. But, look, the Greens have got a range of issues that they're talking to the Government about at the moment. You know, traditionally, as I said before, I have a relationship with the crossbenchers broadly; we're people of good faith right across the board, where we talk about what we're trying to achieve, and we pass it through the Parliament.

That's what   I take nothing for granted, and I take no individual Senator or Member of Parliament for granted, but I'm just pointing to the fact that this is a dance you and I have done many times, PK, where you say to me, "You don't have the numbers to get this through when it comes to climate legislation." At the point of time when you say that you are correct, but I point out that the Government has a pretty good track record of getting things through the Parliament when it comes to climate change legislation.

And this is a reform, as I said, that the climate groups have been asking for for 20 years, motoring groups like the NRMA, RACQ, RACW, have been calling for for many years, choice, the peak consumer group's been calling for. No government up until now has been able to land it. We have landed a good model, which we'll put to the Parliament, and I am relatively confident we can pass.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The Biden Administration wants 56 per cent of new car sales to be electric by 2032. Are you aiming for a similar trajectory for Australian vehicles?

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, we're not aiming for any particular EV target. This is all about choice for us. We want Australians   

PATRICIA KARVELAS: You must have--   

CHRIS BOWEN: Hang on, PK.   

PATRICIA KARVELAS: --an idea of where you want to land.

CHRIS BOWEN: PK, you asked me a question, I'd appreciate it if I can answer it. We don't have a particular EV target; we have a determination to give Australians more choices. So many Australians come up to me in the street and say, "I'd like my next car to be an EV but I'm not really seeing the range of choices that are affordable" and they're right, because there are many more affordable EVs that are available in other countries that aren't available here, because we don't have efficiency standards.

Now the car companies themselves will tell you they have big plans to bring more EVs to Australia. What we are doing is locking in a regime where the Chief Executives of the car companies, take Toyota for example, who joined us for the announcement yesterday, that Chief Executive, Mr Callachor, can now go to his board in Tokyo and say, "The rules have changed, I'm now obliged to bring more efficient vehicles to Australia, you have to help me doing that by sending us better cars".

We have been at the end of the queue for more efficient vehicles because only Australia and Russia in terms of the major economies don't have these standards, so of course, motoring companies, car companies have sent more efficient vehicles to those countries where they're legally obliged to do so. That has not and does not currently include Australia. We are finally fixing that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So on Toyota, and the man you've just referred to as having stood there, they also said that they were looking for something that was ambitious but also would bring Australians along for the journey. That does leave a challenge, a significant challenge. I mean they're still identifying that this is not going to be easy.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, we're not implementing our policy for business as usual. I mean he said yesterday that Toyota supports fuel efficiency standards. He said yesterday, yes, that we will need to bring Australians with us, I mean who would disagree with that. He said it's been Toyota's position for some time that they wanted emissions standards to help with long term product planning; that's really what I'm just talking about there, being to go to boardrooms, whether in Tokyo or Berlin or Detroit or Seoul, and say, "The Australian Government now requires us, like 85 per cent of the car market around the world, now requires us to send better cars."

Now of course, of course, if they're not currently sending Australia very efficient cars, there's a challenge for them to catch up. I mean I don't see that as a bad thing.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay.

CHRIS BOWEN: I see that as good policy, where we've worked with--   

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Is it inevitable though that some of those cars--   

CHRIS BOWEN: --where we've--   

PATRICIA KARVELAS: --will become more expensive?

CHRIS BOWEN: Where we're worked with Toyota and Tesla, I mean there we were yesterday with Toyota and Tesla, bringing the industry together to say, "Yep, let's get on with this now."  Not everyone got what they wanted, not everybody got the perfect model that they put the Government.

Everybody got a say with me and Catherine King. We met intensively with people across the car industry, with motoring groups, with EV Council, with the MTAA, with the automotive dealers, we met intensively with all of them, we listened to their good ideas. Where we thought there was an idea which was not helping us achieve our objective, we didn't take it up; where there was an idea which said, "Look, we agree with what you're trying to do here."   

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay.

CHRIS BOWEN: Then we listened, and as a result we get 87 per cent of the emissions reduction that we were aiming for in the original model, and we've got a model which from Toyota to Tesla, they say is workable.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. Is it inevitable though that some cars, the cost of some cars will increase?

CHRIS BOWEN: On the contrary. On the contrary. I mean that hasn't happened in any country in the world. It wasn't the case with the model that we put out, it's not the case with the model that we adopted yesterday. Paul Fletcher said the same when he was the Transport Minister trying to introduce these reforms; not, you know, 15 years ago, just a few years ago, he said, "In no country in the world where these efficiency standards have come in has the price of cars gone up."  He was right then, and it's a pathetic scare campaign that the Liberal Party's running now, which is different to what they said just a few years ago.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: You've eased the rules for utes and SUVs, two of Australia's most popular vehicles. They're big emitters. Why give them more leeway?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, we've done two things there. What we've looked at is, again, sensible ideas that came forward, which said, "Well, where you've got a car which is the same engine size, the same chassis, the same chassis design, effectively the same car, but in one version it's got a ute tray at the back, in another version it's got some seats, why don't we treat them the same?" 

And Catherine and I listened to that and thought that was reasonable. So we moved them into the light commercial vehicle category. So there's some cars that have moved, there are other cars, other SUVs which don't meet that criteria, they stay in the PV category, the passenger vehicle category. I think that's a pretty, as I said, modest and moderate, but reasonable and meaningful reform, which helps those car companies with the transition.

We still require more efficient choices for light commercial vehicles to come to Australia, as we should, but we've done so in a sensible way which enables that change to happen smoothly.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, just on a couple of other issues, new research overnight says human-induced regeneration, a key part of Australia's Carbon Credit scheme, is doing little to nothing to reduce carbon emissions. Does this jeopardise the integrity of your Safeguard Mechanism scheme, and are you prepared to look at it?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, firstly, as you know, on coming to office I commissioned former Chief Scientist Professor Ian Chubb, AC, to lead a review with some other eminent Australians. That review found that carbon credits, the ACCU Scheme, was basically sound but needed some reforms, which we have or are in the process of implementing.

In relation to the human-induced method, the HIR method, that expired last year, but I'd also make this point. The Clean Energy Regulator engaged the services of Associate Professor Chris Brack, also from the Australian National University, to review the performance of individual projects passing their five yearly regeneration check, he found the projects are demonstrating regeneration and proponents are implementing the project activities.

There's been other checks in relation to the significance increase in vegetation that we're looking for, and it has found that increase in vegetation exists. So I understand--   

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just on that Chubb Review though, if I can get in here, the Chubb Review did not analyse the performance of a single project.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, but it analysed the performance of the entire scheme, and it also made recommendation on the HIR method, which we have adopted, which we have adopted, PK.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Andrew Macintosh, who is the whistle blower here, and at the ANU, says that that review, its remit didn't provide the analysis, and that there needs to be a re-think of this.

CHRIS BOWEN: I understand Professor Macintosh doesn't agree with the results from Professor Chubb, and not just Professor--   

PATRICIA KARVELAS: He says that not all the evidence is considered.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I understand that's his view. It's not a view that is supported by the results from the Chubb Review. We've got   and it's not in relation to HIR it's not a view which is supported by the work done by Associate Professor Chris Brack of the ANU also; it's not a view that's supported by the Emissions Reduction Assurance Committee's report which they've commissioned, peer reviewed, independent statistical analysis which found the HIR projects have had a significant increase in vegetation.

Now I understand Professor Macintosh has a different view. He's expressed that on multiple media platforms, but Professor Chubb and Associate Professor Brack are the people who've been commissioned, and there is a different result from their work.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Finally, Minister, the Government is trying to pass legislation to jail people who refuse to cooperate to return to their birth country. Why did you need to rush this legislation in this extraordinary way where there has been almost no time given to parliamentarians to look at the consequences of such far reaching legislation?

CHRIS BOWEN: I'm not sure I'd agree or support the premise there, PK. It's not unusual for immigration-based legislation after briefing Members of Parliament to be put relatively quickly through the Parliament.

Let's be clear about what this does. Let's just be clear, I think it's very important 'cause your listeners might not have had the opportunity just to be clear about what this legislation does.

Where you've got someone in Australia who has overstayed a visa or come under false pretences, does not qualify for an Australian visa, let me be very clear, is not a refugee, and has no grounds to stay under any other visa category, whether it's skills or family reunion, but they say, "Well, bad luck, I'm not going home," the Government has had limited options, where the country from which they've come says, "We don't want them to come back either." 

Now that is a very big challenge, it was a challenge, you know, back in the day, PK, when I was Immigration Minister--   

PATRICIA KARVELAS: You were Immigration Minister. The issue is the scrutiny--   

CHRIS BOWEN: --and there was, every Immigration Minister, Labor or Liberal, has faced these sorts of challenges. Where you've got someone who, again, for the listeners to be crystal clear, is clearly not a refugee and has no legal grounds after exhaustive hearings and analysis and opportunities for them to make a case, and has been found repeatedly to have no case to stay in Australia, no grounds to stay as a refugee, no grounds to stay on family reunion, no grounds to stay on skills, that says effectively, "Bugger you, I'm not going home," I think it's appropriate that the Government has a better toolkit to be able to deal with individuals   

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay, you can make that case, but the issue is around scrutiny. Independent MP, Zoe Daniel, has said, "If we make a mistake here people may be sent back to countries and murdered."  Does that not weigh heavily on you, that a potential mistake would have those sorts of consequences?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, with respect, somebody in this circumstance has had an opportunity to make a refugee case to the Department of Immigration, to the relevant tribunal, through the courts, and in each instance has been found not to be a refugee, has failed to get a ministerial intervention. I mean if there was an opportunity for them to make a case that they're a refugee, at some – at one of the multiple, multiple points they appear before the Department of Immigration, a tribunal, or a court, they would have made that case. We are talking about people very much at the end of the road who have failed to show any evidence that they're a refugee--   

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, with respect--   

CHRIS BOWEN: --and say, "But I'm not going home".

PATRICIA KARVELAS: --if the shoe was on the other foot and it was a Coalition Government trying to ram legislation through this quickly, you would be up in arms, wouldn't you?

CHRIS BOWEN: No, I disagree, because there have been instances where the Labor Party's been in Opposition, where the government of the day has come to us and said, "Here's the reason we're doing this, and here's the advice we have, and here's the evidence" and governments and Oppositions have worked together, where appropriate, not in every instance obviously, where the case hasn't been made, but where appropriate and a case has been made, to see legislation pass in exactly that form.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, thanks for your time this morning.

CHRIS BOWEN: Always a pleasure, PK.