Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC RN Breakfast

PATRICIA KARVELAS: A bill to legislate a 43 per cent reduction in carbon emissions by 2030 will be the first test for the new Federal Government when Parliament resumes next week. To secure passage of the bill through the Senate, the Government will need either the support of the Coalition or the Greens and at least one other member of the crossbench. The Greens have signalled their willingness to work with Labor, but they want changes. Chris Bowen is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy. Welcome back to Breakfast. 

CHRIS BOWEN: Thanks, PK. Great to be with you again.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The Greens argue that because you’d have to go back to the Parliament to increase the target, it’s a ceiling; it’s not a floor. Are you prepared to introduce a sort of ratchet mechanism so that the Government of the day could lift the target if it wanted even though you want to enshrine 43 per cent allowing for it to go up without legislation in the future? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, firstly, PK, just a couple of principles; we’re proceeding as we said we would proceed, which is to seek to legislate. And I said we would talk to the crossbench about sensible suggestions they have, which are in keeping with our mandate. We’re happy to talk to them in good faith and take ideas which complement our bill on in good faith and incorporate them where we can. So, that’s the principle. We’ve got to implement the mandate. We’ve got to implement our agenda, but we will work cooperatively with the crossbench about how we do that and that’s what we’ve been doing. 

In relation to the specific questions, the Prime Minister and I have both said repeatedly that we see 43 as the floor that we want to see the country achieve. That is, in fact, in the language of our NDC that we’ve already notified the UNFCCC of. It says, “Our aspiration is that the commitments of our industries, states and territories and the people of Australia will yield even greater emissions reductions in the coming decades". So, of course, that’s the intent. Also, the bill, the draft bill which we provided in good faith to the crossbench to help them think their position through last week, does also reflect that NDCs – nationally determined contributions, targets – have to be consistent with Paris and there’s also a ratcheting mechanism in the Paris agreement, i.e. every target has got to be higher than the last. But again Patricia, if there are good faith ideas to make the Government’s intent even more explicit, then we’ll take those on board and consider those in good faith.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Ok, sensible, good faith – so repeating the question: are you prepared to change the language? You still get your 43 per cent, but there is a ratcheting up in that legislation because – is that sensible? Is that good faith? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, Patricia, with all due respect to the importance of your show and the Australian body politic, and I mean that seriously, it’s not where we’re going to negotiate with the crossbench. I’ll do that in individual discussions with members of the crossbench. We’ve already briefed the crossbench. I’ve already had some very positive discussions with members of the crossbench broadly about their views, and a number of the members of the crossbench have indicated to me they think this is something they can work with. Of course, they’re providing constructive suggestions which I will take on board and consider and talk to the Prime Minister about. But that is our approach. And I know some people might see it as an old-fashioned view to say that a government should implement its promises. That’s what we’re doing. But we do also want to work very cooperatively with people of goodwill across the Parliament. I would have been happy to do that with the Liberal Party; however, they’ve ruled out supporting the legislation so they’ve made themselves irrelevant to that process in terms of the Liberal Party as a whole, but I will do it with people of good faith. Now –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And after hearing from the Greens Leader yesterday on Insiders where he articulated their view, is there a negotiation process now with the Greens? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I am looking forward to a detailed conversation with Mr Bandt. I do understand and respect that he’s got a process to go through. He’s got to talk to his party room. They haven’t done that in detail yet. I understand and respect that. I understand that he’s got to do that. That’s more than Mr Dutton has done, who’s just unilaterally without consulting his party room made the Liberal Party irrelevant. Mr Bandt is taking a different approach. I understand that and respect that. 

And again, I just come back to that important principle, PK, where a member of the crossbench, whether it be the Greens or another member of the crossbench has a suggestion which they think improves the way the Government achieves its objectives and its agenda and its mandate, I’ll take that in good faith and work with that. That’s the principle that we’re applying. As I said, I’ve been encouraged by the conversations we’ve had so far. This is what happens when you have a government of adults that are happy to talk across the Parliaments to get things done. 

Now, as I’ve said repeatedly, PK, we’ve already notified the UN of our targets, so the legislation isn’t essential, but it is a good idea. The importance of the legislation, Patricia, is that it allows those Australian companies and those international companies that want to invest in renewable energy to say to the international boards, they’ve got array of countries to choose from as to where they invest in renewable energy, “Hey, not only does Australia have a new Government that gets it, the Parliament gets it. They’re providing us with a framework with certainty going forward". That’s why we would like to pass the legislation if it can be done. We think it is important for that encouragement of private sector investment. That’s why we’re going to try. That’s why we’re entering good faith discussions.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, in terms of good faith discussions, Adam Bandt, the Greens Leader, said yesterday that if you’re going to legislate you want to Dutton-proof it, right, so that if there was a shift to another Government in three years, I mean, Australian politics can be quite a wild ride, that – 

CHRIS BOWEN: Really? 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: As you would well know! That you would, basically, protect this ambition. What do you say to that? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, look, I understand where he’s coming from. To one degree, Patricia, in Parliament can bind a future Parliament and the best way of ensuring continued strong climate action is a good Labor Government. If Mr Dutton is Prime Minister, we will not have good action on climate, and it doesn’t matter what the legislation says. So, that’s my answer to that. 

Again, Patricia, if there are things that he’s concerned about in the legislation, if there are things which the crossbench, whether it be the Greens or others, think can be made more explicit that are already in there, including what is our obligation under Paris to make sure that future targets are stronger than previous targets, then we’ll have a good look at that and talk through the ideas and see what can be sensibly incorporated. That’s what a Government of grownups would do and that’s what the Prime Minister and I are doing.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, it’s not a “take it or leave it” approach? 

CHRIS BOWEN: No, look, I outlined this at the National Press Club a few weeks ago where I outlined what would be in the draft legislation; that we would not entertain amendments which undermine our mandate, undermine our agenda or a breach of an election promise. We wouldn’t go down that road and we won’t be, but as I said in the same speech, sensible ideas – I don’t think that all wisdom resides in all cases in every sort of sentence in the bill with me. I think if there’s a sensible suggestion, we’ll consider it in good faith. That’s the approach I outlined several weeks ago. That’s the approach we have been proceeding with. As I said, we briefed the crossbench last week. I’ve had a number of discussions with members of the crossbench who’ve come back to me and said, “Look, this is good; maybe you’d like to think about this or that". And so that process will proceed, and I expect those conversations to continue, and they’ll continue in good faith.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Is there anything you can share with us that after those conversations you thought: okay, we’re going to make this change? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Again, I’m not going to negotiate it or make changes, with all due respect, on your show this morning. The draft legislation is good legislation but, as I said, where there is a sensible idea which is entirely in keeping with the Government’s approach and can be incorporated, we’ll take that and look at that and I’ll talk to colleagues about that and work that through.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Adam Bandt also says, though, that the Government’s position towards new coal and gas projects will be a critical factor in the Greens’ stance on the proposed bill and that they’re concerned that you could add to Australia’s emissions after the legislation is passed by opening gas projects in Western Australia and the Northern Territory. Will you open gas projects in those states? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I think you and I talked about this last week, PK, where I mentioned that if a company has, you know, a project on its possible list of developments into the future doesn’t mean it’s a proposal; certainly, doesn’t mean it’s a Government proposal. It would have to get finance, which is a significant issue at the moment. And then it would have to go through all the necessary State and Federal environmental approvals, and if it is a carbon-emitting project, it would be covered by our safeguard mechanism reforms. So, you know, it’s not as simple as saying, you know, there will be – as you are putting in that question, with all due respect. And again, we see this as an important piece of legislation but it is legislation designed to achieve the targets and to encourage private sector investment in renewables, in transmission and in storage, which are essential in getting to our 82 per cent renewable energy target and our 43 per cent emissions reduction target both by 2030, both of which I make this point Patricia, we have 90 months to achieve. I mean, this is – we have wasted a decade, a decade of denials and delays so we are starting in 2022 to reach a 2030 target which is a 90-month window to achieve what is quite an ambitious program, so hence this legislation is desirable to help encourage that private sector investment.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Now, Peter Dutton, who’s the Opposition Leader, also spoke yesterday and he says this is a wedge because you don’t actually need to legislate it. Are you trying to wedge the Opposition? 

CHRIS BOWEN: By implementing an election promise we said we would seek to legislate? I mean, I notice the Victorian Liberal Party came out and said they would legislate their targets if they won the state election yesterday, so they have a different view to Mr Dutton. Mr Dutton hasn’t consulted his party room. I note that there are some members who are saying they are considering a conscience vote – 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Are you talking to them, those individuals? 

CHRIS BOWEN: No, but I’m happy to talk to people of good faith and goodwill around the Parliament, but I haven’t had any discussions with members of the Liberal Party. Mr Dutton has made the Liberal Party as a whole utterly irrelevant in this process because he hasn’t got the memo from the Australian people that they want action, and I think that’s a mistake on his behalf. But obviously, that is a matter for him. The Parliament will proceed and if the Liberal Party has chosen to make themselves irrelevant to those discussions, that’s unfortunate, it’s a matter for him. If there are members of the Liberal Party, as some have indicated who are considering voting with their conscience, then, of course, that’s a good thing.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Thank you so much for joining us. 

CHRIS BOWEN: Always a pleasure, Patricia. Good on you.

END