Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC RN Breakfast

PATRICIA KARVELAS: As Australia and the US move closer together in the Pacific, they’ve also announced closer cooperation on energy security. The two nations signed a net-zero technology acceleration partnership on the sidelines of this week’s energy forum in Sydney. The agreement is aimed at challenging China’s dominance in the clean energy manufacturing space. 

The Minister for Climate Change and Energy Chris Bowen joins me now. Welcome back to Breakfast. 

CHRIS BOWEN: Thanks, Patricia. Good morning. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: There wasn’t a lot of detail in yesterday’s announcement. Take me through the specifics of the zero-net technology partnership with the United States. 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it’s an important agreement, Patricia, signed by Secretary of Energy Jennifer Granholm and I yesterday. But, you’re right, it’s the start. As I said yesterday, it’s the start of a process, not the end. It’s an agreement effectively recognising our respective expertise in renewable energy technology. 

We have ARENA and CSIRO and the University of New South Wales Photovoltaic Research Centre, for example, all world-class institutions. Senator – Secretary Granholm has 17 laboratories in her Department of Energy. We want them working together more closely on the important innovations that are necessary. And it will focus on things like hydrogen, on grid integration, you know, we have a big task ahead of us integrating electric vehicles into the grid and reverse charging, distributed energy and all those sorts of things. 

So there’s a lot of work to do. Secretary Granholm and I yesterday, all through the day, were discussing what we might do next and what particular initiatives might be pursued next. So it’s the start of a very important partnership. And, we said at the election we wanted climate change to be a much bigger part of the alliance and, you know, to be frank, Patricia, the Biden administration, the Albanese government are very closely aligned on climate. And I think the agreement we signed yesterday is a reflection of that. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: China is responsible for about 80 per cent of solar energy technology manufacturing. And that’s expected, I understand, to reach 95 per cent by 2025. So how do countries like Australia and the US, which have much higher production costs, challenge that dominance? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, that’s a key point, Patricia. You know, 80 per cent – for any country to have 80 per cent of production of solar cells and rising to well over 90 per cent in just the next three years is, in my view, an issue, an issue that needs to be tackled, whether it’s China or any other country. That is a massive concentration and a risk to supply chains. 

Now, we have the advantage, though, of world-class technology, as I mentioned before, the University of New South Wales research centre. I’m taking the Indian minister R. K. Singh out there later today and I’ll be talking to India about the opportunities for closer engagement there as well. 

Now, of course labour costs are an issue, but I made this point repeatedly, Patricia. You know, for example, we’ve put 60 million solar panels on our roofs in the last 10 years in Australia – 1 per cent of them were made in Australia. That’s not sustainable going forward. 

And so that’s why we have policies in relation to the National Reconstruction Fund and spending up to $3 billion of that on renewable energy technology, on things like the battery manufacturing precinct that Minister Husic has championed in Queensland to actually take – Australia is actually the largest source of lithium in the world and add more value to it. It is a very important part of our climate and industry agenda we took to the election, and it’s a part of the agenda we intend to get on and implement. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: If you’re just tuning in, this is Radio National Breakfast and Chris Bowen the Minister for Climate Change and Energy is our guest. 

Minister, Japan will ask Australia to boost LNG production because of fears Russia will limit supplies. Is that something you’ve agreed to? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it hasn’t been raised with me directly yet, Patricia. I see the media commentary. And, firstly, can I say, Minister Hagiuda will be coming to Australia today. This is, one, a huge honour for Australia and, two, a recognition about how important these discussions are. Minister Hagiuda is personally close to Shinzo Abe, so we fully expected him to pull out. The fact that he’s coming I think shows just how important this meeting is that we’re having today. 

Now, in relation to LNG production, of course, we tripled LNG production over the last decade and we still have very severe domestic issues in relation to gas supply that Minister King, Madeleine King, and I have been working through. And Minister King is looking at reform options there. 

So these are complicated issues. But, look, this is just one of a small part of a very important discussion. We’ve talked with, as I said, with Secretary Granholm at great length, with Minister Singh, with my Indonesian counterpart about what next steps we might have together. These are all part of a very complicated and rich embroidery of a step-up in international engagement on climate now that Australia has a government with a framework that gets it, and a policy framework that the rest of the world can work with, which is a big change over the last decade. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Can you agree to boost LNG production for export without – with ensuring there’s a domestic supply to avoid the kind of price spikes we saw at the start of winter? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I think you’re getting, you know, with respect, Patricia, a bit ahead of ourselves there in that conversation. There’s been one media report and, you know, as I said, these are complicated issues. We have tripled LNG production over the last decade, and we still have some supply pressures in Australia. That’s why Minister Madeleine King is doing a great job in looking at reform options there. But simply just increasing supply, I think you’re right to point out, is not necessarily a silver bullet when you consider some of the other very complicated issues we have to work through. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Right now the government’s gas trigger is based on supply. That’s under review, and my understanding is it was going to be a quick review. Will you now change that trigger and base it on price instead? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, you’re asking me to pre-empt a policy review that one of my cabinet colleagues is undertaking. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But it must be getting close.  

CHRIS BOWEN: Yes. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: We’re close to the next sitting period and there was a sense of urgency. What is your thinking? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Yes, well, my thinking is that when the cabinet has a discussion I’ll have a view, and then that will be announced, the cabinet’s result will be announced after Minister King has finished her review process and it’s been taken through the cabinet. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Can you give me a time frame? 

CHRIS BOWEN: We recognise the importance and the urgency of the matter. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Right. Could there be legislation ready for the next sitting period? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Patricia, I think – I think you’re asking me to talk about cabinet processes, which I’m just not going to do. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Not really. I’m asking you about timing. 

CHRIS BOWEN: Good go. Nice try, but I’m not going pre-empt a cabinet decision. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: All right. Does Labor’s plan to allow the approval of more than a hundred new coal and gas projects undermine the message that you’re projecting through the Pacific on emissions reduction. The Prime Minister – I spoke to him earlier – he’s now flying to Fiji, he’s going with this message, but we actually have some contradictions in that message. 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, hang on, Patricia – I must pick you up on the way you framed the question, because it’s not accurate. And, you know, that’s the language of some in the debate, but it is not an accurate reflection to say that we have plans to approve 100 projects. Firstly, just because a company has at some point indicated that a project might come forward and it’s in their forward pipeline for possible consideration does not mean it will come forward. 

Secondly, then they’ve got to take it through the board of their own organisation. Then they’ve got to get finance, which is not necessarily automatic, and then they’ve got to seek environmental approvals, both at state and federal levels. 

To say – to characterise that as we’ve got a plan to approve a hundred projects is just, frankly, not correct. And if any project does meet all those hurdles, then they’ll have to comply with our new safeguard mechanism forum. 

So there’s a long, long way to go. And we have a very holistic policy which is committed to the 43 per cent reduction. But we’ve been very clear about how we’ll achieve those emissions reductions, and that’s reflected in the policies that we’ve announced and are implementing, whether it be the safeguard mechanisms reforms or rewiring the nation or community batteries or solar banks or our electric vehicles strategy – all the above will achieve the emissions reduction. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Is it reasonable for new coal and gas projects to be assessed for their impact on climate change as part of the federal environmental approval process? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, we have a rigorous environmental approval process and then we have a rigorous safeguards reform mechanism. And the two, I think, will work well together. But, you know, the matters that the Environment Minister takes into account under the EPBC Act are well established and Tanya Plibersek will do an amazing and very impressive job as she considers all those matters going forward. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The week before last, you became the first Minister for Climate Change and Energy to sit down with Torres Strait Islanders to talk about their concerns about climate change, and they are very, very concerned about rising sea levels and the existential threat of climate change for them. What message did you give them, and what commitments did you give them? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I gave them a message that by me and going with several senior parliamentary colleagues to the Torres Strait, and my understanding is it’s the first ministerial visit since 2017 of any federal government minister to the Torres Strait. These are Australian citizens who are dealing with the impacts of climate change every day. I mean, we are rightly focusing on the Pacific as part of the new government’s agenda. That is 100 per cent correct. But we cannot forget there are Australian citizens doing this – dealing with this every day. I walked along sea walls that are being built to try and deal with the erosion. And there are direct links with climate change.

And so we had some very good and respectful discussions. I made it very clear to our Torres Strait Island citizens and brothers and sisters that, you know, they have a seat at the table and a voice to me directly. And I must say, the visit went well. They appreciated the visit and they had things to talk to me about and I had things to talk to them about. But it was the start of the conversation, not the end. We’ve got much to do together. But, importantly, they’re not being forgotten, and we do have to recognise the impacts of climate change on our own islands as well as the Pacific. Indonesia is the world’s largest archipelago, and all islands are exposed. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, just finally, later this morning energy ministers from the Quad will meet informally. What will you discuss, and could shared agreements around energy security and climate change become another focus of that grouping? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, this is the first time energy ministers from the Quad have ever met. So, as I said, Minister Hagiuda from Japan flying is in for that meeting. It’s an important meeting. I’m not going to pre-empt what we might say or discuss. I’ve had conversations with each of the – my other counterparts from the United States and India over the last day or so and we’ll be progressing that conversation. 

But I think it’s important. The Quad has an important role to play. It’s one of the many organisations, and I’ll take any – in the international architecture, and I’ll take any opportunity to progress our climate change agenda and our energy security agenda and our supply chain security agenda, and the Quad will be an important part of that. But what we talked about in the Quad meeting we’ll discuss in the Quad meeting and then we’ll have more to say after that. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Thank you so much, Minister. 

CHRIS BOWEN: Always a pleasure, PK.

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