Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC RN Breakfast

PATRICIA KARVELAS: After months of marathon talks between the government and the Greens, Labor’s safeguards mechanism has been given safe passage to pass the Senate. The changes will put a hard cap on the total emissions companies can create to help fast track Australia’s commitment to cut pollution by 43 per cent to the end of the decade.
 
Chris Bowen is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, and he joins us this morning. Minister, welcome back to Breakfast.
 
CHRIS BOWEN: Thanks, Patricia, good morning. And good morning to everyone at home.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: You’ve essentially agreed to a hard cap on emissions. Will it make it harder for new fossil fuel projects to be viable?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: More than happy to run through the detail of how the cap will work, Patricia, but, firstly, let us just say yesterday was a very significant day for climate policy in our country. We have – we are now well on the road to providing Australian industry and the economy with a stable, ambitious policy environment for investment in decarbonisation. And what we did yesterday has been welcomed by the Climate Council and the Business Council, been welcomed by the ACF and the AIG. So, I think it shows we got the balance right. And the BCA said these reforms were tough but achievable, and I think that’s right. I think that’s what the government’s been trying to do – have a policy which is ambitious but achievable. That sums everything we’re doing.
 
Now, in relation to the cap, more than happy to run through the details. When we put this out in January, we outlined what emissions reductions we expected to occur as a result of this policy. What we’ve done is write them into the legislation. So, you know, the requirement is that net emissions can’t exceed 1,233 million tonnes between 2021-22 and 2030, for example. Now, if I receive or the Minister of the day receives advice from the Climate Change Authority or as a result of new proposals that that cap is being threatened or is being exceeded, then there are obligations on me, on the Minister of the day, to consider options –
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: What sort of options?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, to consider options like tightening the rules or any other policy option that is available to the Minister of the day. Now, the important thing – there’s a couple of important points to make here: that budget that we outlined – carbon budget that we outlined in January and confirmed in the legislation does include projections, allowances for new proposals already. It does include that. We discussed that in the past, both specific proposals and a reserve or a buffer for any new proposals within that budget.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay.
 
CHRIS BOWEN: That hasn’t changed. And if emissions go up – frankly, Patricia, the government of the day, the minister of the day – me – would be obliged to consider options. That is quite appropriate and that is the way it should be.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. Adam Bandt says the cap means half of these fossil fuel projects that are in the pipeline potentially will no longer proceed. And projects that are further along, like fracking in the Northern Territory’s Beetaloo Basin, may not be feasible. Is Beetaloo feasible?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, in Beetaloo what we’ve said is we’ve locked in, again, to the legislation what has been our longstanding position and what, frankly, what is the longstanding position of the previous government and the Northern Territory Government that scope 1 emissions would have to be offset and that scope 2 and 3 emissions would have to be referred to the energy ministers of Australia to consider what to do about them. That’s been our long-term position and we’re more than happy to long that in to the law.
 
Now, in relation to the projects, you’ve heard me say before when we talk about 114 or 116 projects, these are projects that are on the resource and energy major projects list. The Department of Resources publishes –
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Yeah, some of them might not happen – I get it.
 
CHRIS BOWEN: Exactly.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: But I’m just wondering about the viability of them. That’s my question.
 
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, what we’ve done – what we’ve done is a couple of things. What we’ve done is, as I said, lock into legislation what should be – what should be – emissions reduction. I mean, the Liberal Party’s, you know, frothing at the mouth about this. They don’t think there should be a cap on pollution.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: No, they don’t.
 
CHRIS BOWEN: And there wasn’t a cap on pollution and pollution went up under them and they’re happy with business as usual. We’ve also said new gas projects would have to – or any project for that matter – would have to comply with international best practice. That is – I think Australian projects should comply with international best practice. Others in the opposition disagree. I happen to think our country deserves having our new projects at international best practice.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. But you’ve also said we need more gas. And last night the shares for Woodside and Santos dropped. Is the deal already having an effect on whether those major gas companies will be able to build new projects?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, again, you’re going to see commentary, you’re going to see all sorts of claims –
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: But that’s a fact – that the shares dropped. What’s your analysis of why that would have happened?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, my job is good policy for the country. That’s my job, Patricia – good policy for the country.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: So why would the shares have dropped last night?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I’m not here to comment on share market movements.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: But doesn’t it demonstrate that they feel less confident to be able to put new proposals before the government as a result of safeguards changes?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: That’s a matter for the markets. So, I’m not a share market commentator. What I am is somebody putting together for the country well balanced policy. And, again, I mean the Australian Industry Group said the treatment of new facilities appears to strike a workable balance. Again, I think that’s a good characterisation of what we did yesterday. I thank the Greens and the crossbench and Senator Pocock for their engagement. This is a sensible government of grownups getting on with the job –
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay.
 
CHRIS BOWEN: The Liberal Party had made themselves a rhapsody of irrelevance by counting themselves out of the negotiation.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: They certainly weren’t part of this deal. There’s no doubt about it. So, let me put this to you: have you made it harder? Do you concede that this change that you’ve agreed to with the Greens has made it harder to get a gas project up?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, what I more than concede, what I claim, is that we have required new projects, whether they be gas or anything else, to meet international best standards on emissions.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: And does that make it harder in your view and more expensive?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, a project will either have to invest in onsite abatement with the technology available to them or offset that. Now, companies can factor that into their investment decisions. They will have to factor that into their investment decisions. But that’s quite appropriate for our country. And, again, you know, I’ve seen very balanced commentary from most players – most players – in business saying, “yes, we can work with this. This is a good balance.” And I believe it is.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Tanya Plibersek Environment Department has just approved a new gas processing plant and pipeline in WA under the EPBC Act. Why didn’t we find out about that on Friday? I think it was approved Friday, but we didn’t hear about it. What’s happening?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: Oh, well, I’m not aware of the announcement processes, but –
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay, but what impact does it have on the emission –
 
CHRIS BOWEN: These things go on the website, you know, in due course, and as Tanya has already committed to and as I locked into the arrangements yesterday, any new EPBC approval which leads to substantial emissions will need to now have those emissions transparent and published. Tanya had already announced and confirmed that she would do that. What I’ve agreed to yesterday is that that will now flow through to our safeguards system and that will be considered by me and the Minister of the day when we are looking at whether we are achieving our targets or not. That is appropriate transparency.
 
What we did is really two things: in one sense we’ve improved transparency, integrity and accountability in the entire safeguards scheme. That’s a good thing. Secondly and separately, I also announced measures to better support strategic manufacturing – industries we need in Australia, like steel, cement and lime, aluminium and alumina, because we want those industries. In fact, they are absolutely vital for our renewable energy transition. We’re going to need a lot of steel, a lot of aluminium, a lot of cement for this big task ahead of us. So, I’ve taken on board – this is not just about crossbench negotiations – of course that is an important part of it – but it is also, frankly, Patricia, about eight months of consultation, three rounds of consultation, many, many meetings with climate groups, with industry groups, with business groups, listening to views. That’s the way we do business in the Albanese Government. We listen, we take on board good faith suggestions and where they’re in keeping – you’ve heard me say this before, Patricia – where they’re in keeping with our election mandate and our agenda we accept them and work with them, and where they’re not we decline to accept them.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, there was a lot of criticism that your safeguards mechanism lacked teeth and strength. Have the Greens just saved your policy?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: I would characterise it as two political parties with different views about many things coming together to work on things that we can work on. Now, Mr Bandt, who you’ll have on next, you know, has had and will have plenty to say about our approach and things he disagrees with. That’s fine.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, let me put one of them to you before you continue, which is that he says it’s like dealing with the political wing of the gas and coal companies. Is that what you’re like? Do you operate in those meetings like you’re representing the gas and coal companies?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: That’s not the way I see it, but Adam’s entitled to express things as he sees them. I see it after I can’t tell you how many hours of meeting, Patricia – I lost count – with Mr Bandt, and we started, you know, with him saying, “this is what we want,” and me saying, “this is what I want,” but sensible people of goodwill keep working at it to find a workable solution for our country, and that’s what we’ve done. And thank goodness we have because after 10 years of denial and delay and dysfunction and 22 energy policies and governments announcing things and not delivering anything, we are delivering. I mean, we’re getting on with it.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay.
 
CHRIS BOWEN: I mean, we’re getting the job done.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: The plan also has a trigger in it. Can you talk to me about how the trigger works?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, what it is, it’s – that’s what I was referring to before, Patricia. We had previously committed to require reporting of emissions and related actions from big projects, EPBC approvals. That will now feed into our safeguard reforms. So the environment department will – part of my department, part of the department that Tanya and I jointly administer will then feed that in to my part of the department and to me and where there are proposals which might mean that our budget needs to be reconsidered, that then enlivens what is an obligation on me to consider, to consult and to take action to ensure we keep in the budget. I mean, our country does have a carbon budget. It should have a carbon budget. We should be reducing pollution. And the law of the land should say so, and that’s what we’ve done.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: The Prime Minister was asked yesterday about whether this Voice to Parliament would provide advice on policy like this. The Greens’ Dorinda Cox says without doubt coal and gas projects are affecting First Nations people. Would the Voice be able to provide advice to you on a policy like this?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: Well, the Voice can provide advice to the government about matters that they regard as important. But let me say this –
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, this would – I mean I suspect by –
 
CHRIS BOWEN: Let me say this –
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: One minute, I have to say this: some traditional owners would say this very much affects them; this is on their traditional lands. So, what does that mean?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: The principle is here, Patricia, that we want the Voice when it’s established to be able to advise government on matter thanks are important to Indigenous people. Now, I saw the opposition yesterday trying to cause trouble saying, “oh, it would be able to advice the Reserve Bank on interests,” and you’re going to see more of this. And the Prime Minister is rightly – rightly – keeping the focus on where it should be, not these, you know, attempts at distraction by the Liberals or anyone else to say, “oh, look, this Voice is more complicated.” I mean, what a cheap and pathetic attempt by the Liberals to try and derail the Voice by saying it’s going to give advice on all these things.
 
It's a very simple principle here, Patricia – if it’s a policy decision which is directly relevant to our First Nations people –
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: And this would be. And this would be, right?
 
CHRIS BOWEN: – then of course the Voice Will be able to interact with government on matters that they regard as important to Indigenous people. And of course, as we’ve said many, many times, the government then will of course take into account that and any other representations we receive from others and continue to make good policy.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, thanks for joining us.
 
CHRIS BOWEN: Always a pleasure, PK.