Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC RN Breakfast

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The Federal Government is facing pork-barrelling allegations made in relation to a $200 million community battery grant program. Yesterday on RN Breakfast, independent MP Rebekha Sharkie likened Labor’s handling of the scheme to how the Coalition handled the sports rorts scandal.

Joining me now to talk about that and other issues is the Federal Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen. Chris Bowen, welcome back to Breakfast.

CHRIS BOWEN: Great to be back with you, PK.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So the handling of this has been likened to the sports rorts scandal. Do you accept that allegation?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, PK, you might as well ask me if I accept that night is day because there couldn’t be a bigger or starker contrast.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Really?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I listened to Ms Sharkie’s interview with you yesterday, PK, and she was disappointingly wrong on fact on multiple levels. Let me just make a few points. She recognised that I had called a briefing for all members of parliament on how they could apply – Labor, Liberal, Green, independent – something which I don’t recall ever happening in nine years of Liberal government. She didn’t come to that personally; she sent a staffer. Fair enough. But the way she characterised this program is just wrong and perhaps if she had better informed herself of some of these facts she wouldn’t have made these allegations.

She said that her community wasn’t able to apply. I can tell you, Patricia, that four battery applications have been received from her electorate and are now running through the process and are being considered by ARENA. She said that the announcements we made pre election were skewed. Well, if it was skewed it wasn’t very well skewed. I mean, we made announcements for Leeton in the electorate of Farrer held by Sussan Ley with a 19.8 per cent margin – not one on our win list. And Narrabri in the seat of Parkes, Noosaville in the seat of Wide Bay, the seats of Wentworth, North Sydney – not seats that were on our list to win. So, look, unfortunately, Rebekha is just plain wrong. This is a very important program. We did make election commitments. She seems to be arguing that political parties shouldn’t make election commitments. But we did so openly and transparently, all announced pre-election. And then what we’ve done is for those that weren’t allocated pre-election, a complete arm’s length independent process run by ARENA in my agency.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay.

CHRIS BOWEN: So I would have been more pleased if Rebekha had received a briefing from me. I could have told her those facts. She didn’t seek a meeting with me. And I’m giving you the facts instead today now.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. But Rebekha Sharkie says many of the selections went to Labor seats or marginal seats, many of which fell to Labor. So they were target seats for you.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, many seats were held by the Labor Party. They were held even by the Labor Party before the election -

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But disproportionately in this program –

CHRIS BOWEN: Well –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I mean, just level with us. You were promising them because you were trying to win an election, right?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, of course we were putting our policies, including community batteries before the people and different communities. But I’ve seen figures say, “Oh, 30 per cent of seats went to – 30 per cent of the grants went to seats that Labor could win.” Well, we were very competitive in this election. Of course there were lots of seats we could win and ended up did winning a majority of. So –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Of course, the context there is that you didn’t invest this in seats that you just knew you couldn’t win.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, with respect, Patricia, I’ve just run through why what you just put to me is just entirely untrue.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But they’re in the minority, those cases, aren’t they?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well – well, nevertheless, there were commitments made there. I mean, 45 per cent of the commitments were given in seats we did not hold, which is complete contrast to the previous government. Ms Sharkie said we should have got departmental advice. I’m sorry, that’s not how the Westminster system works – shadow ministers don’t turn up at department offices and say, “Listen, I know I’m not your minister, but could you advise me on this.” I mean, sorry, that is just completely naïve about how this political system in Australia works.

What we did is make a series of open and transparent commitments to communities right across Australia in every state and territory, including very safe Liberal and National Party seats, some safe Labor seats, some seats we were competitive and hoping to win. I mean, that is just the statement of fact. Ms Sharkie seemed unaware yesterday that, as I said, four applications for her electorate have gone in. I don’t know if she’s been involved in those – that’s a matter for her. She said she wasn’t able to apply. I’m sorry, Patricia – that is just incontrovertibly untrue.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. So should the Auditor-General look at it? Are you open –

CHRIS BOWEN: I’d be very happy. I’d be very happy for him to. I’d be delighted for him to. It’s entirely a matter for him, of course. But if the Auditor-General looks at this program, he’ll see that we have called for expressions of interest in the communities which we identified pre-election in an open, competitive process. He will see that there’s also been a round, open and competitive, arm’s length, run by ARENA. That’s what the Auditor-General would find. I would be delighted. It’s an entirely a matter for him, the Auditor-General, and the ANAO what they look at. But if they do choose to look at that they’ll find full cooperation. I’d be delighted to have it all looked at.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, how are the remaining grants going to be decided?

CHRIS BOWEN: By ARENA.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So there’s – this is why it’s a little confusing, right? There’s a political process where you promise some grants in different electorates

CHRIS BOWEN: Sure, but we’ve been –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: – and then ARENA doesn’t later – 

CHRIS BOWEN: We’ve been transparent –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So what? There’s two categories – 

CHRIS BOWEN: No, no, no. No, so, Patricia – 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: – for application.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, Patricia, with respect, we were very clear about this pre and post election. We announced 400 community batteries. Now let’s just take a moment to say what an important program that is. It improves the stability of our grid, enables families who can’t afford a battery themselves to participate in the community battery program. We also said very clearly that we would make some pre-election commitments about where they go, including the seats of Farrer, Parkes, Wide Bay, Wentworth, North Sydney, which I just went through. Yes, some seats held by the Labor Party like Macnamara and Wills and other seats like that. Other seats we were hoping to win – of course – because I’ve just run through the category of all the seats. Every seat in the parliament, Patricia, is a seat that we hold, don’t hold or hope to win. So you can go through and say, “Oh, look, X percentage went to seats held by the Labor Party or X per cent went to seats held by the – that the Labor Party hoped to win.” Well, that’s a lot of seats, Patricia. That’s a lot of seats. And so, yes –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. 

CHRIS BOWEN: And then we said for those remaining, we will have a process which communities can engage in. We have been very pleased with the feedback and the level of interest in that. They are being worked through, those applications. There’s four from the electorate of Mayo. I don’t think Ms Sharkie knew that. It might have been better if she had better acquainted herself with the facts before making these sorts of allegations.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I want to move on to another issue – let’s move on to the finalised gas code which is in effect. How exactly is this going to ease rising cost pressures on households?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, what it does, Patricia – and it came into force yesterday, and I’ve been, again, very pleased with the feedback but unsurprised by the feedback because of the hours, days and weeks of consultation which went into getting this right with gas users, gas producers. And we’ve had 267 petajoules of indicated new supply come forward as a result of our Gas Code of Conduct, which is necessary to fill those gaps which had been identified by AEMO and the ACCC in coming years.

But what it will do is a price cap, which continues. That’s vital. I know many gas companies would prefer – and they’ve said that as late as today in the newspapers – that we haven’t put a price cap on. Well, no apologies. We were not going to see those extremely elevated international prices caused by the Ukraine war flow through to Australian users. So that price cap continues. But we also have an exemptions and exceptions framework which has been very carefully designed to enable those decisions about investment to be made in a degree of certainty. We have increased the transparency obligations and the conduct provisions on gas companies. All that will lead to a fairer and better gas market because, as I’ve said repeatedly – including on your show on multiple occasions, Patricia – Australian gas under Australian soil and Australian seas in my view and the government’s view should be available to Australians at reasonable prices. That’s what this code of conduct is.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And the opposition says you have done nothing to ensure that there aren’t shortfalls and you’ve not provided a way of bringing new supply online. How do you respond to that criticism?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, the opposition has made themselves irrelevant to this process by just opposing everything.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, but on the actual specific critique.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well – and they don’t have anything constructive to say at any point. But on the specific critique, gas companies have indicated new supply directly as a result of this code of conduct. The opposition again perhaps needs to better acquaint themselves with the facts instead of false allegations.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just on another issue, Minister, on wind, you’ve announced this morning the establishment of an offshore wind zone off the coast of Newcastle. How long until it is functional and putting power into the grid?

CHRIS BOWEN: We’d expect first power by 2030. But this is a good day for renewable energy in Australia, PK. It’s a good day for the Hunter. I am declaring the Hunter wind zone today. It will generate around 5.2 gigawatts of electricity. I’ve taken into account very seriously, as we always do, community feedback through a consultation process. So there are changes, as there should be, from the original zone which was put out for consultation. That’s what consultations are about. So we’ve worked with communities, I’ve listened to environmental concerns, made changes, for example, to move the wind zone further away from Cabbage Tree Island, which is a very important environment for the Gould’s petrel, all that sort of stuff. Listened to community.

So it’s a good area – 1,850 square kilometres – which will generate a lot of energy, a lot of energy at times when onshore renewables aren’t generating because the times that it’s windy offshore are very different to the times that it’s windy elsewhere. So that’s very good for grid stability. It’s a very important part, offshore wind, of our drive to 82 per cent renewables. And it will create a lot of jobs in the Hunter, which is an area undergoing, as you know, strong economic change with the move away from coal-fired power stations over time. We need to create jobs for the future in regions like the Hunter, and that’s exactly what today’s announcement will do.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And, Minister, before I let you go, it’s kind of important internationally – we’ve signed up to this G7-backed climate club, which sounds interesting, but what does it do? What has the club achieved to date and what does it change about Australia and our obligations?

CHRIS BOWEN: I think, Patricia – look, I wouldn’t overstate this, but, nevertheless, it’s an indication that Australia’s back at the top table of international discussions on climate. Couldn’t really conceive that happening over the last 10 years when we were a bit of a pariah internationally. Now this climate club, as you say, is what the German government has called it, is an opportunity for nations to interact on the way that they’re reducing carbon emissions, particularly in industrial sectors – as you know, we’ve got a very strong policy through the safeguard mechanism – and to compare notes on how we should treat each other in terms of our carbon border adjustment mechanisms, which we’ve said, you know, is under consideration in Australia.

So it gets us into that conversation. It’s not in and of itself, you know, going to solve the world’s climate crisis. But is it important that Australia is at that table? Sure, it is. So we were very happy, the Prime Minister, to accept the Chancellor’s invitation to join. I spoke to the Prime Minister yesterday from Berlin. He told me how much Australia’s hydrogen Headstart project had been noticed in Germany, how much interest there is in Germany in buying Australian green hydrogen. This has been a very strong feature of this visit --

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So can we expect Australia to export green hydrogen to Germany?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yes. Yes, that’s what we’re working towards. And, indeed, when I was in Germany earlier this year we jointly announced the Australian and German governments’ joint funding of green hydrogen projects in the Illawarra and in Queensland and South Australia. That’s pretty extraordinary to have a German government investing in Australian green hydrogen, because they want to see us, like we do, emerge as a green energy superpower because they know they can’t generate the energy they need in and of itself for them as an industrial powerhouse of Europe. So, yes, Germany is an absolutely key partner for us on our journey towards a renewable economy, and we work very, very closely with the German government. We saw that yesterday with the Prime Minister’s visit. We saw it earlier this year with my visit. You see it with the visits of very senior German ministers. I’ll be meeting with my counterpart, the Deputy Chancellor of Germany, in coming weeks. This is a very key partnership. And, yes, you will see Australian green hydrogen exported to Germany. I have no doubt.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. Greens leader Adam Bandt says Australia can’t be taken seriously in the club unless it bans new coal and gas. That’s – it’s just basically aesthetic.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, look, the Greens have their view and they have their talking points. I would have thought most people who are interested in good climate policy for Australia would welcome Australia finally after 10 years of denial and delay being welcomed back, as we are, at the COP process. I mean, you know, it’s chalk and cheese the way Australia gets dealt with in the COP process under this government as compared to the previous government. Every government is dealing with this very challenging but huge opportunities – climate crisis and renewable energy revolution in different ways. Every country is ensuring sensible policies to ensure energy reliability as we do that, and that’s what we’re doing. And energy reliability not just for ourselves but for our key trading partners.

I mean, PK, if you want to be a green energy superpower, as we do, you also have to be a reliable energy provider on the energy you’re providing now to build that credibility so that when we are exporting green hydrogen and renewable energy – whether it’s through submarine cables or anything else – our trading partners know that we’re reliable. And that’s the process under our government. It wouldn’t be the case if you adopted the Greens’ position. Fair enough. I respect their position. It’s a different position to the government.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, many thanks for joining us.

CHRIS BOWEN: Great to join you, PK. Good on you.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Federal Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen. And you are listening to ABC RN Breakfast.