Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC RN Breakfast

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Joining us on Radio National Breakfast this morning is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Chris Bowen. Minister, welcome to the program.

CHRIS BOWEN: Nice to be back with you, PK, good morning.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: In that speech Peter Dutton added that there was zero chance of the Albanese Government reaching net zero by 2050 using renewables alone. Do you agree that there's no way of reaching that by using renewables alone?

CHRIS BOWEN: No, of course not. Our policy is of course getting to 82 per cent renewables by 2030, backed by storage, backed by transmission, and backed by gas peaking and firming. That's the plan supported by experts underpinned by the Integrated Systems Plan, it's a carefully designed plan.

What we saw yesterday was just more misinformation, and clearly a plan, a scheme that hasn't been thought through; no costings, no details, and frankly a very clear misunderstanding or misrepresentation by Peter Dutton about the respective energy mixes that are options for Australia, ignoring all the multiple problems for nuclear energy in Australia as identified by experts and clearly talking down Australia's potential as one of the countries in the world with the best renewable energy resources.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So is it your message that it's not a renewables only plan; is that what you're trying to get out, because that's what the Coalition has been painting it as.

CHRIS BOWEN: That's just part of their spin, and our policy's been very clear. Getting to 82 per cent renewables is no small thing, it's a big change for the country, but it's also got to be supported by a well detailed plan to back it by new storage, batteries primarily, but also pumped hydro. That's happening, and we have policies in place to do that, and that is rolling out; we're seeing a big increase in storage.

And the thing about Peter Dutton's plan is again he doesn't understand that what we need for a system which is net zero and predominantly renewable with peaking and firming – coal is not suitable for peaking and firming, because once you turn a coal fired power station on, you're not turning it off, and guess what, same as nuclear, whereas gas can be turned on and off to support the energy system when we do need more energy, it can be turned on or off at two minutes' notice, so when a gas fired power station is not turned on, it is zero emissions.

Coal and nuclear can't be turned on and off, and when coal is on it is emitting even if we don't need the energy. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of the energy system.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. Peter Dutton acknowledges his nuclear plan requires a significant upfront cost, but he argues these costs would be spread over the reactors' 80 year life span and that his plan would prove more cost effective because of that life span, renewables life span isn't the same; that's the argument, right?

CHRIS BOWEN: It's a false argument. I mean there were figures out last week, I know that Mr Dutton had a chance yesterday to release the costings, it's been more than three months since he announced his seven sites, and we still haven't seen a costing. They say they've done them, but they won't share them with the Australian people.

In the absence of that we're seeing experts come forward. Last week, the International Energy Economics and Finance Association, which actually costed nuclear reactors over more than 80 years and still found an enormous cost impact on Australian bills, still found it was the most expensive form of energy. It was a conservative costing by them.

Now Mr Dutton and Mr O'Brien just shrug their shoulders and say they don't agree. Now expert after expert  

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, they say that it's not based on, the modelling is not –

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, they can clear that up. Well, they can clear that up, can't they, PK?

PATRICIA KARVELAS: They have said that it's not based on their plan.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it's based on the cost of nuclear reactor construction around the world.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Yeah, but the big reactors, right, not the, they say that they're talking about a mix, so –

CHRIS BOWEN: No, they're not. No, they're saying two small modular reactors and five big, and so why wouldn't you cost big reactors? Five of them will be big and as, again, last week we had the International Nuclear Status Report out which found that small modular reactors continue to be extraordinarily expensive.

So again, expert after expert says that nuclear energy would take too long to build for Australia, and it would be too expensive.

Now, it's quite arrogant, one, not to release your costings, and two, just to dismiss every expert and say they're wrong. Where's their modelling, who's done it – is it the Treasury or the Parliamentary Budget Office? Where are their costings? They are treating the Australian people, quite frankly, with quite arrogant contempt.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The latest figures from the Clean Energy Regulator say the annual contribution of renewable energy to the national grid will average 42 per cent. Now under your plan, what percentage of the energy mix will solar and wind eventually account for, and is the sort of slow down of the roll out of renewable going to cause disruption of getting to your ambition?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, these are encouraging figures out today, still a long way to go, but encouraging figures saying renewable energy investment up substantially over the last year, up this year, rooftop solar, maintaining its strong growth, but utility scale increasing dramatically, potentially doubling last year.

Now we've got to keep our foot on the accelerator, there's a long way to go, but these are encouraging figures. As I said before, it's a big lift to get to 82 per cent renewable by 2030. It's important that we do, not only for emissions reduction, that's pretty self evident, but also, frankly, Patricia, for reliability. The biggest threat to reliability in our energy system now is coal fired power stations.

You know, we haven't had a day in the last year where we haven't had an unexpected outage from a coal fired power station, a breakdown, to put it another way, in a coal fired power station. Expected outages, we can deal with, you know, closures for maintenance. When a coal fired power station breaks down, that is the biggest threat to reliability in our energy system. They're getting older, and here's the thing; they don't get more reliable as they get older, Patricia.

Now Mr Dutton yesterday again openly conceded he would keep coal fired power stations open for longer, "sweat the asset", to use the economic term. Now that's bad for emissions, terrible for emissions, and you know, they can't even have a 2030 target.

But it's also terrible for reliability. If you're leaving those coal fired power stations in the system for longer while you're waiting for the, you know, nuclear fantasy to come on board, then you are just engineering a recipe for unreliability and black outs in our system.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Very briefly, your Government just announced the appointment of Tony Mahar as the new Australian Energy Infrastructure Commissioner. I mean he's, you know, a past Farmer's Federation boss. Are you trying to co opt him to try and, you know, soften this dispute over the roll out of renewables?

CHRIS BOWEN: It's a good appointment, Patricia, and I was very pleased to make it yesterday. Tony has dedicated his life to rural and regional Australia. He understands agriculture, he understands the regions. He knows there's opportunities for rural and regional Australia from this renewable energy transformation; income for formers, drought proof income, you know, farmers putting up solar farms and wind farms on their farms and continuing to work as working farms as well.

Yesterday, where we made the announcement we were on a solar farm with sheep on it, Australia's largest solar farm has 6,000 sheep running on it. It's a, as I said, a drought proof form of income.

Now the role of the Energy Infrastructure Commissioner is to work with communities and renewable energy developers to ensure that the renewable energy investment is in the best interests of the regions hosting it. I'm determined to do that, and I couldn't think of anyone better than Tony Mahar to help us get that done.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Chris Bowen, thanks for your time.

CHRIS BOWEN: Good on you, thanks, PK.