Interview with Raf Epstein, ABC Melbourne

RAF EPSTEIN: Part of our week's been dominated by those protests on the West Gate Bridge. A lot of you wanting a bigger, broader discussion about climate change. The good news of course first up is emissions are lower than they were 20 years ago. That's a good thing. But how do we do a lot more? We need to do a lot more. The choice is right now between the two major parties between things like big wind farms off the coast or nuclear reactors.

There's going to be a new wind farm zone off Victoria's West Coast. The news is that instead of stretching from Warrnambool all the way to the South Australian border. Those big windmills in the ocean will now be confined to an area, just one fifth the size. So it's off the coast of Warrnambool but only as far west as Port Fairy.

If you don't have as much space for wind farms, does it make it harder to reduce your emissions?

Chris Bowen is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy. He is of course part of Anthony Albanese's Government, he's also the Labor MP for the seat in Sydney of McMahon.

Good morning Chris Bowen.

CHRIS BOWEN: Hey Raf, good morning.

RAF EPSTEIN: I might get a chance to ask you about Sam Kerr, but I might leave that to the end. Not as much space for wind farms. Doesn't that make it harder to reduce emissions?

CHRIS BOWEN: You put a language warning out before, I thought oh, this interview could get a bit spicy but then I realised you weren't talking about our interview.

Look, on wind and renewable energy more broadly, Raf, I mean we have a remarkable opportunity in our country. We are the most renewable rich country in the world. More sunlight hits our country than any other country in the world.

Our wind onshore is above average and we're the world's largest island, and offshore wind in particular is important because it is very windy offshore, as our listeners would understand. It's also windy much more constantly. It's much less variable. In fact the International Energy Agency calls offshore wind dispatchable renewable. By that they mean it's renewable energy which is available almost all the time.

We have a process, very careful process, of developing an offshore wind industry in Australia. Victoria frankly is at the forefront of that. We've got two zones in Victoria. Gippsland, which I declared last year, and the Southern Ocean, which after consultation I declared yesterday. These are important. Offshore wind is energy rich, as I said, one turn of one offshore wind turbine generates as much energy as your solar panels on your roof do all day. But also jobs rich, which is very important because a lot of these areas, particularly around Gippsland for example, are going through economic change and offshore wind will create a lot of jobs as well.

RAF EPSTEIN: But less must be a problem though, less space means you've got less ability to lower your emissions.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, sure. Well, in terms of what we do, I consult about an area very carefully, put it out and say, "What do you think?” to an area. In every zone I've declared so far I've made changes after the consultation, and I make no apologies for that, Raf. I think it's important that communities know this consultation isn't a tick a box exercise. It's not nonsense.

I mean we read the submissions and go through what people raise. If people say, "Climate change isn't real, we don't support renewables", well I move that submission on pretty quickly. But if people have got genuine concerns, I work through them.

Now there were some issues about lobster farming, issues about a thing called Bonney Upwelling which is a very rich area of marine life, not just whales but, you know, full marine life ecosystems which I took into account.

But in the area I declared yesterday, we still get 2.8 gigawatts of energy, that's enough energy for 2 million homes and also it'll be very important for the Portland Smelter going forward because increasingly investors and consumers will put out, you know, will demand that aluminium be emissions free and without the sorts of things we did yesterday that would be very hard.

So this is a good step forward yesterday, about the consultation and getting it right is important as well.

RAF EPSTEIN: Two of the biggest wind farm projects that have just actually been signed off on, one's off New York State in the United States, the other in the UK, for both of those projects the price of the electricity they generate, it doubled for both major projects. That's a likely prospect with wind farms offshore, isn't it, doubling of the initially expected price?

CHRIS BOWEN: We're getting a lot of interest for Australian offshore wind with very competitive bids, both in our federal system, our federal system of licensing, and then in the Victorian – I know Lily D'Ambrosio's making good process on the Victorian auction system.

Offshore wind is newer. Obviously when you are newer you are going through a cost curve, but offshore wind will, I believe, be very competitive and, as I said, it's also improving and changing all the time. In addition, it's a constant source of renewable energy and very jobs rich, so it has much going for it.

RAF EPSTEIN: Isn't the overseas experience that it has cost blow outs too?

CHRIS BOWEN: Every energy project around the world has some cost blow outs. I tell you what has the biggest cost blow outs is nuclear by many, many, many multiples, but we're finding very competitive processes, very competitive bids for offshore wind in Australia. We are – the offshore wind developers tell us they see us as one of the most important markets, if not the most important market for them in the world at the moment because of the policy process we've put in place and we're getting very competitive, very competitive in this.

RAF EPSTEIN: If every energy form has cost blow outs that's a massive problem, isn't it? That's going to stop you achieving your targets too.

CHRIS BOWEN: We're on track for our targets, we're on track for our 43 per cent emission reduction target, and with the Capacity Investment Scheme I announced last year we are on track for 82 per cent renewable. And every country – most countries around the world –

RAF EPSTEIN: But at what cost?

CHRIS BOWEN: – have similar – 

RAF EPSTEIN: If every project has a cost blow out does that mean you're achieving your goals, but more expensively?

CHRIS BOWEN: No. As I said, if you look at costs we've had – you know, people talk about Snowy Hydro, yes, that has blown out. There was not enough due diligence done by previous management on some of the issues that we've encountered in Snowy Hydro, but that is still massively cheaper than nuclear, for example.

You've seen the cost of solar come down around the world. Solar is now the cheapest form of energy that's ever been available to humankind. So to your point about, you know, costs, let's just bear that in mind too. Solar is the cheapest form of energy that any government, private sector energy system has ever had available to it ever. So that's massive opportunity.

Onshore wind, you know, the price does move around, but again the cost curve is positive. And offshore wind is at an earlier stage in development so of course, as our listeners would understand, you know, mobile phones were expensive when they started, the cost came down very dramatically. We're seeing similar developments with offshore wind as well.

The only thing where the cost continues to go up and everything continues to get harder, is nuclear.

RAF EPSTEIN: If that is the case with nuclear, as Energy Minister what would be the problem with lifting the nuclear ban? The Prime Minister often says no one's ever put up the money for nuclear power. If you're so convinced that that is the case and the power of that argument, why not lift the ban and then just let the market sort it out? That's what the Coalition wants to do. Why not lift the ban?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well there's no country in the world where the market has embraced nuclear. I mean any country in the world that has nuclear has massive government subsidies. So this whole "let the market sort it out" idea is nonsense.

It would send, you know, mixed messages that the Government sort of isn't sticking to its plan on 82 per cent renewable, which we are.

RAF EPSTEIN: Wouldn't it send the plan that you're letting the market sort it out?

CHRIS BOWEN: No, as I said, Raf, no market sorts out nuclear. Nuclear is uneconomic. It has – it gets massive government subsidies everywhere in the world. We have no intention of supplying those government subsidies to nuclear so it would be disingenuous to send that signal.

There's also bans in the eastern states and we're not going to ask the states to lift their bans. We're not lifting our ban. We have a plan to get to 82 renewable, which has its challenges of course, any big economic change has its challenges, but we are on track to do it and that's the path we're going down.

Nuclear, let's just call it out, Raf, this whole nuclear debate is a massive red herring by the people who denied climate change for 10 years and are now trying to delay renewables. It's a plan to slow renewables. I mean the Coalition actually calls for a pause, calls for a pause on renewable energy, as if the last 10 years weren't pause enough, they want a complete national pause while we have this nuclear conversation, and therein lies the rub. That is actually their plan. This is not pro nuclear, it is anti renewables. That's what they want.

RAF EPSTEIN: Chris Bowen's the Energy Minister, Climate Change and Energy Minister in the Prime Minister Anthony Albanese's Government. 1300 222 774 is the phone number.

We will before the 9 o'clock news have a chat to Tracey Holmes about what we think Sam Kerr will be charged with.

Chris Bowen, just to return to your portfolio and to electric vehicles. The Government has spoken about over five years a 60 per cent reduction in fleet emissions, so you're encouraging the car makers to do that. Are you going to stick to that five years, 60 per cent reduction, is that going to be your policy?

CHRIS BOWEN: So let's just explain to the listeners what's going on here, Raf, firstly, some first principles. Australia and Russia are the only two major economies in the world without fuel efficiency standards, new vehicle efficiency standards.

They've been in the United States since the 1970s, for example, and as a result, Raf, our listeners might be surprised to learn, our cars are 20 per cent less fuel efficient than even the United States. 40 per cent less fuel efficient than Europe but 20 per cent even than the United States with their big pick up trucks as they call them, that so dominate their roads. They've had fuel efficiency standards for as long as you and I have been alive in the mid 1970s, they've had those.

Australia has missed out on the opportunities of having them. China has them, India has them, New Zealand now has them, Saudi Arabia has them and Europe has them. So we are going to introduce them and what we've done is in early February, Catherine King, the Transport Minister, and I put out a preferred position, which is to match the United States by 2028. Because we think there's is a country which is, you know, obviously a lot bigger than us but has, you know, similar demands for transport and we think that's an appropriate standard.

Now we are consulting on that, because consultation closed on Monday. If there's sensible suggestions, we run a very consultative open government, if there's sensible suggestions that could be added in and –

RAF EPSTEIN: The reason I asked the question, Minister, is, and I know, I've seen you in question time sort of strike back very forcefully at the Coalition's questions, but my question is not so much about their figures or your figures about individual vehicles.

CHRIS BOWEN: I understand.

RAF EPSTEIN: Over five years a 60 per cent reduction, I know you say it's going to be a saving; I'm not asking about that. Are you going to stick to that goal, five years, a 60 per cent reduction? It's a big reduction.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well it's ambitious because we need to be, because we've waited so long. Because this was first talked about in 2001, John Howard promised it. The Liberal Party tried it in 2015 and 16 and then – and we gave them support from the Opposition and the right wing of the Liberal Party vetoed it. It is way overdue.

Now, as I said, consultation closed on Monday. Catherine and I are working through the submissions. If there's sensible suggestions there about how we can best implement this, then fine. But people who say, "I support a new vehicle emission standard but not one that's strict" are really saying, "I support an efficiency standard as long as it doesn't work". I'm not interested in that argument, as long as it doesn't change behaviour.

Australians deserve better choices and better cars, and we will deliver that. We will deliver better choices and better cars by implementing a long overdue reform next year for fuel efficiency standards, new vehicle efficiency standards for Australians.

Australians are missing out on choice, Raf. You know, it's not just about electric vehicles. It is partly about electric vehicles. There are lots of electric vehicles available that are cheaper in other markets that aren't available here because we don't require them to be sent here. But it's also even about existing internal combustion engines.

There are many models available overseas which use less petrol and diesel than ours that are more efficient that aren't sent here. And when I've traditionally asked the manufacturers, "Why don't you send these vehicles here" they say, "Because you don't have a standard and, every other country does. We sent them to the countries where the law requires us to". Surprise surprise.

Well we have been way at the back of the pack missing out for too long and under this Government, Raf, no longer.

RAF EPSTEIN: Okay. Final question before I let you go, Chris Bowen. There are multiple ministers telling The Age newspaper that one of your ministerial colleagues, Ed Husic, the Science Minister, he has been complaining that ministers do not feel they are being listened to. Did that happen? Is Ed Husic and are other ministers unhappy that they are not being listened to in your Government?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well I'll just say I'm not going to comment on any particular Cabinet meeting, as you would expect, but I will just say the Prime Minister runs a very collaborative and collegiate Cabinet. You'll be shocked to learn that I don't comment on the record or off the record on any Cabinet discussions. Ed is a very valued and important member of the Cabinet and what we say in the Cabinet stays in the Cabinet.

RAF EPSTEIN: Okay. A different final question then, and again a language warning. Sam Kerr apparently is being accused of calling a police officer a white bastard, I presume the officer is white. Is that racist or not?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I mean I only heard that term in your introduction. I followed the story obviously but maybe, you know, I hadn't caught up with that particular element. I mean Sam Kerr's a great Australian and a hero but I'm not going to comment on a court case on the other side of the world which, you know, I've only just heard about from you. But, you know, I think we would all be wishing Sam Kerr the best.

RAF EPSTEIN: Don't want to answer on a hypothetical if someone used that –

CHRIS BOWEN: No.

RAF EPSTEIN: – with a police officer?

CHRIS BOWEN: No, I'm not going to answer a hypothetical about a court case which is on the other side of the world. I'm not.

RAF EPSTEIN: Fair enough. Thanks for your time.

CHRIS BOWEN: Good on you, Raf, good on you.