Interview with Raf Epstein, ABC Melbourne

RAF EPSTEIN: Something completely different, the Federal Government is about to announce one of the largest ever tenders for renewable energy, so people with renewable whatever, to provide enough electricity for hundreds of thousands of homes in Victoria.

The Federal Government is also backing gas. We are going to be spending half a billion dollars over a decade as taxpayers to find new deposits of both minerals and gas.

Chris Bowen is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy. Good morning, thanks for joining us.

CHRIS BOWEN: Pleasure, Raf. Good morning.

RAF EPSTEIN: What is the point of asking private companies to provide renewable energy if we're also using public money to look for gas?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, look, well, let's take this in a couple of parts, Raf. We are in the middle of a very significant transformation, we're moving our energy system from 30 per cent renewables when we came to office, to 82 per cent renewables by 2030, we're on track to do that, and the announcement today is a very big part of doing that, the biggest single auction supporting renewable energy in Australian history. So, we're getting on with that job.

On gas, we have said consistently, I gave a speech in Melbourne last week making a similar point, that gas has a role to play in that transition, because the thing about gas is it's flexible. It supports renewable energy because you can turn it on and off quickly, unlike coal and unlike nuclear, it is flexible and can respond to needs, and that's a pretty important scaffolding around this massive transition to renewable energy which we are engineering and which we are embracing and pushing.

And, as I said, today's announcement of 1.4 gigawatts for Victoria, which is enough renewable energy for 700,000 homes, is a very important part of that drive towards a renewable energy future.

RAF EPSTEIN: Why does it make sense to use taxpayer money though to explore for gas and hand that information over for free to the industry? Why do you think that is not counter to your Government's aims?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, we are mainly supporting the exploration for critical minerals, that is a long-standing Government process, because it's in the national interest to know where our deposits are.

RAF EPSTEIN: Sure.

CHRIS BOWEN: But as a – and, you know, and yes, companies benefit from that, but so does the country from knowing where the critical minerals are, which are, you know, we have nine out of the 10 critical minerals necessary for a battery in Australia, we have half the world's lithium supplies. We are interested in adding more value, we have, you know, as I said, 50 per cent of the world's lithium supplies but we only extract about 0.53 per cent of the value, so you're going to see a lot more, and you've already seen us talking about a Future Made in Australia, and a renewable energy superpower; you'll see a lot more of that on Tuesday night in the budget.

RAF EPSTEIN: You haven't mentioned the exploration for gas though. I just wonder why, if the money is going to be used to look for gas and the information is freely going to be handed over to gas companies, why you're not keen to tout that. I can't work out, I guess, if the Government is upset about doing this or is happy to be doing this.

CHRIS BOWEN: No, no, look, we are always – we always say the same thing, and you know, I do a lot of forums. I did an inner-city forum in Ged Kearney's electorate last week; I've spent a lot of time in Regional Queensland. We had the same message, that this transition is difficult to manage but absolutely essential. It will happen at a pace that the Government is driving but, you know, slogans as part of that transition are unhelpful, and I understand that gas is a controversial issue, but we will call it as we see it.

It has a role to play, as I said, scaffolding and supporting that transition to renewable energy, which we're driving hard and appropriately hard when you consider the need for urgency in relation to climate change.

RAF EPSTEIN: Look, I'm interested to know what people think, and I will get to calls in a moment on 1300 222 774. I guess this is the Government saying you can do both gas and renewables. Chris Bowen's the Energy Minister.

Chris Bowen, I don't want to go through chapter and verse, but there's no end of Labor MPs in Victoria who do not appear happy about spending money on gas exploration, taxpayer money. Ged Kearney's one of them, you mentioned her. Kate Thwaites says she's frustrated by the process.  Michelle Ananda Rajah says she feels blindsided by the process. Josh Burns says not a cent of public money should be spent on new gas.

Your colleagues in Melbourne threatened by Greens votes and voters, they don't appear nearly as comfortable with this as you.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, Raf, I think with respect you're conflating a couple of issues there. I heard Josh Burns this morning, and he's a very good and strong MP, as are the others that you've mentioned, Kate and Ged and Michelle, and those colleagues.

Now, in relation to what Josh said. Josh said he believes the emphasis should be on renewable energy and promoting renewable energy. I agree. Guess what? So does Madeleine King, so does Anthony Albanese, so does the Cabinet.

That's why we're lifting renewable energy from 30 per cent of our National Energy Market to 82 per cent by 2030. That's why we're promoting Australia as a renewable energy superpower, because as important as our own domestic decarbonisation is, the bigger role we can play is exporting green hydrogen to help other countries get off gas.

That is a bigger role we can play, and you'll see again a lot more in the budget on that.

So you'll find that is very much the emphasis of the Government. Yes, we need gas as part of that change, to the –

RAF EPSTEIN: Those MPs are definitely not uncomfortable with this, or have I got that wrong?

CHRIS BOWEN: I mean, as I said, I heard Josh this morning, and I've heard little – I heard nothing that I disagreed with about what – in Josh's –

RAF EPSTEIN: Sure, but the genuine question, you must be aware, I mean Josh Burns was a very close-run thing against the Greens in his seat, other MPs in Victoria, people must say things privately. I'm not asking you to reveal private conversations.

CHRIS BOWEN: Good.

RAF EPSTEIN: But it's not outrageous to say –

CHRIS BOWEN: I won't.

RAF EPSTEIN: – your Melbourne MPs are worried about this, aren't they?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I mean I spent a lot of time with them. I was in Ged Kearney's electorate doing a forum with, I don't know, a few more than 100 people just last week, good discussion, not everybody agreed with everything I said, I'd be very surprised if they did, because that's not how politics works, but a very good discussion.

Again, those MPs are very active in our climate change discussion in the Caucus. That's what they're elected for; that's their job, that's the job they do very, very well, and I make this point, Raf, they are members of a government, they are not a pressure group on the side of a Parliament, they are members of a government. They are in the room where it happens, having an impact on policies, and that's what you want, a good strong MP who's in a government Party Room, not on the crossbench, but a government Party Room actually making a difference when it comes to policy.

RAF EPSTEIN: Well, I guess it's up to voters to decide if they do have an impact or not. Just two practical questions: the first one, the statement mentions a potential location for future gas fields in the Otways. Does that mean taxpayers are going to be funding gas exploration in the Otways?

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, again, Raf, the gas strategy yesterday was quite a broad document which doesn't actually go to government investment, it does not. I understand some people have interpreted it that way, but it doesn't –

RAF EPSTEIN: But it's Geosciences Australia, they're funded by us, it's half a billion dollars.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yes, but hang on, Raf, if I could just finish my point. You're conflating the gas strategy, Future Gas Strategy yesterday, which is a broad statement about the country's energy needs and gas needs, to help give the private sector a view about the Government's views about things like how you get gas around the country; you know, there's gas pipe lines, there's import terminals, import terminals is maybe a misnomer because it's not actually by and large about importing gas from overseas but getting it from one part of the country to another.

Now that is a challenge, you know, that is the challenge for this transition, and the strategy yesterday outlined some of those issues, it didn't flag government investment. What it flagged was issues that the country and the economy with Government's guidance needs to address. That is not a flag of big government investment coming in gas.

On the contrary, on Tuesday night, you're going to see big investments in renewable energy and renewable energy manufacturing, as there should be.

RAF EPSTEIN: Chris Bowen, if I can just finish on this point, something totally different. I think there's about 10 times as many Muslim voters as there are Jewish voters in this country. I would never assume that every Jew votes the same or every Muslim votes the same. But clearly issues in the Middle East are exercising some people in an electorate like yours, in an electorate like Josh Burns'. Are you worried about the electoral impact of what is becoming a really fractious debate?

CHRIS BOWEN: Raf, I worry much more about the state of the country, and fractious debates and views which aren't helpful to community harmony, I mean we can have a robust democracy, of course, where people express strong views, both locally and in national debates, but it needs to be done respectfully.

We are, you know, we have voted and called for a ceasefire in Gaza repeatedly, the Prime Minister's issued statements with the Prime Ministers of Canada and New Zealand calling for that. You know, but that function I did with Ged Kearney last week unfortunately was disrupted at the end by protesters about this issue, and that was unfortunate, because it meant the very good discussion about renewable energy I was having with, you know, more than 100 constituents in Cooper couldn't proceed any longer because, you know, there was yelling and chanting, and the meeting was disrupted.

Now that is not how we have a sensible mature conversation in Australia. Ged Kearney went to considerable effort to put that forum on for people. I was more than happy for people to come and express views about Gaza, even though it was about renewable energy, but not sort of yell and disrupt the meeting, which I think was an unfortunate event, and it's to Ged Kearney's credit that she held the event and not to the credit of everyone who came that they disrupted it.

RAF EPSTEIN: And I don't want to run through a list of slogans, but should we be telling people what they can and can't say at a protest?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, there is freedom of speech in Australia, but within limits.

RAF EPSTEIN: Okay. I'll leave it there. I appreciate your time, thank you.

CHRIS BOWEN: Good on you Raf. Big announcement for renewable energy today, so that's the main thing that I wanted to talk about, I'm glad we could touch on that.

RAF EPSTEIN: No problem. The renewable tender today goes out. That's one of the biggest auctions. Effectively the Government says, "Come here, do this stuff with renewables, and we'll sort it out". That will power hundreds of thousands of Victorian homes.