Interview with Sabra Lane, ABC AM

SABRA LANE: Now we have two guests this morning to discuss the New South Wales election result. From Labor, I'm joined by Chris Bowen, the Federal Minister for Energy and Climate Change. And also on the line is Senator Andrew Bragg, a Liberal Senator for New South Wales. Thank you to you both for joining the program. First to you, Chris Bowen. What's the key to Labor's victory?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, good morning Sabra. Well, in any victory, or indeed for that matter any defeat, there's never one particular issue or one particular point. I guess I'd point to a few. Firstly, Chris Minns is a very compelling leader. I believe he has the potential to be one of the great transforming and transformative Labor Premiers of New South Wales in the mould of Wran and Carr. And I think the people saw that. They also saw his authenticity. And from his very first day as leader, he took an approach where he wasn't going to take pot-shots on cheap issues, he wasn't going to take what many other leaders would see as a clear opportunity. He was going to just call it as he saw it. If he thought the government was doing the right thing or being unfairly targeted, he would say so. And that's I think, while it was in many senses criticised by many at the time, built his authenticity with the people of New South Wales. And I knew that when he did criticise the government, he really meant it.

I think also the government had been in office for twelve years. Obviously, that's a long time, but also, to be frank, I don't mean to sort of kick the boot in while they're down, but a certain arrogance had kicked in. I mean the Barilaro appointments just showed they thought they could get away with stuff that really, they couldn't and shouldn't get away with. They thought that they had everything under control, when clearly people had a different view. And finally, I think the sweeping nature of Labor's victory in many diverse seats, I mean we won seats in the regions, we won seats in the cities, we came close to and still close to taking a seat off the Greens in Balmain just showed that just we have at the federal level, we've sort of got that approach which brings people together on many of the big challenges facing our state and our country, most particularly climate change, but on many issues we've managed to build that synthesis to say we have an approach which is not simple or easy, but is the right approach for people of all walks of life and trying to reject that politics of toxic tribalism, of pitting people against each other which really had dominated the conservative playbook for the last 15 or 20 years.

SABRA LANE: Okay, Andrew Bragg, we're going to go to you. Do you have a response to that? What's the lesson for the federal Liberals, Peter Dutton and the Nationals from this result? And was there any lingering residual damage from the federal election?

ANDREW BRAGG: Good morning, Sabra. I mean, after twelve years, it's always going to be hard to win another term. And I think that what you saw last night was a swing against the government and that was a swing that was quite heavy in Western Sydney, in the regions, in certain parts. But the Liberal Party has held on to the bulk of its metropolitan seats, or inner metro seats on the North Shore, Eastern Suburbs, parts of the Inner West. These are the areas that were wiped out in the last federal election and I think that's an important distinction because one of the most important lessons here is that we have to be a party that doesn't go into the margins and doesn't seek to inject division into the mainstream.

SABRA LANE: Some conservatives are already saying the lesson from this is for the party to head further to the right. Is that how you see it?

ANDREW BRAGG: Well, I think the numbers speak for themselves and the results speak for themselves. Obviously, we have lost a number of seats to Labor, a lot of seats to Labor and last time I looked, Labor was a party of the centre left.

SABRA LANE: Dominic Perrottet took full responsibility last night, do you think that's fair? What about the organisational wing of the party?

ANDREW BRAGG: Look, I think it was a very decent campaign. I think after twelve years of government, which has transformed New South Wales and Sydney in particular, that Perrottet was well regarded personally, but there were some residual brand issues coming through from Canberra. And look, I'm always loathe to blame party officials. I mean, there was a twelve-year government, it was a good government, and running for an additional term to get 16 years was always going to be a big stretch.

SABRA LANE: Okay. Chris Bowen, you've known Chris Minns for 25 years. What kind of premier is he going to be?

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, I think Chris brings to the table some just really roll-gold values. I mean, he is just one of the most genuine, nicest, well-intentioned people you could ever seek to meet. I mean, he is loyal to his friends, he's ambitious for his state and for his party, but in a way that he exercises within a very clear set of moral guidelines for how he should behave.
He's also one of the most impressive strategists I know, both partisan political terms, but also in terms of policy. And he thinks about the future and works back. So that's why I say I think he has the potential to be one of the great transformative premiers of New South Wales. I think he has the potential to lock this narrow win, and this is the way we do it in New South Wales, you know Sabra. Neville Wran won by one seat and then went on to lock in a long-term government. Bob Carr won...

SABRA LANE: Bob Carr did, too.

CHRIS BOWEN: This is the way the Labor Party likes to do it in New South Wales, we win by a very narrow margin and then we can build and consolidate. I think Chris has enormous potential to do just that. There are a number of seats last night where we've come close to winning, we'll probably fall short, but we are well in the hunt in four years' time, I think Chris will again bring that approach, which brings people together. And again, it's the New South Wales Labor model. I mean, right back to don't want to bore yout listeners with a history lesson, but right back to McKell, who won his majority in the 1940s with big regional wins. We won big regional wins last night. I mean, South Coast is a win for the ages. It's an extraordinary win off a big margin by a candidate. And I think that's what Chris brings to the table, that sort of considered approach. He will always do what he thinks is the right thing. I've had many, many conversations with him late at night where we talked about conundrums and he always ends up saying, "well, we'll just do what we think is right here and the rest will look out after itself." That is very much his approach.

SABRA LANE: Andrew Bragg, you've sort of touched on this a little bit earlier. The threat of the teal candidates and teal style independence didn't materialise as strongly as we saw in the federal election. Why do you think is that the case? And also, what does it say now about the Liberal Party brand that there is only one Liberal Government left in the country, in Tasmania?

ANDREW BRAGG: Well, I think it was a very good result for the Inner Metropolitan Liberals yesterday. I mean, Felicity Wilson had a particularly good result in North Shore, Vaucluse, looks like Willoughby, Pittwater, Manly, it looks like all those seats will hold against teal challenges. So, I think that shows you that when you put some decent policies together that address people who live in the city, of the issues that people are concerned about in the cities, I should say, in relation to the economy and childcare and emissions reduction and the like, that you can hang on to these seats. So, I think that's a very important lesson for us here in Sydney. Obviously, there are some other issues I think that we need to consider carefully, which is that we appear to still have a major issue with Chinese Australians and we need to think very carefully about how we address that because there have been big swings against the Liberal Party in seats where there are large concentrations of Chinese Australians.

SABRA LANE: Is that just looking ahead to next week, you've got a Federal bi-election in Aston. Do you think that still might be an issue there?

ANDREW BRAGG: Look, I can't say I'm an expert on Victorian politics, given I used to be a Victorian, I consider myself a reformed Victorian. I can't say for sure, but I mean, obviously the issues, I think, were flagged in the Loughnane and Hume Review and we need to consider that carefully.

SABRA LANE: Chris Bowen, energy is a big issue in New South Wales. The incoming New South Wales Environment Minister, Penny Sharpe, says the new government might have to look at extending the life of the Eraring coal-fired power station. This week's, Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change issued what it called a final warning, saying that there should be no new gas or coal projects if the globe is to seriously tackle global warming. How can the state ignore that and press ahead with possibly extending the life of that power station and new projects, including the Narrabri gas project?

CHRIS BOWEN: I don't think that's what they're doing, and Penny Sharpe would be the last person with respect to would put that point of view. But what we are doing - all of us, governments, federal and state, and to be fair, the previous Liberal Government in New South Wales, and I expect the new government in the same vein and even more are doing, is managing what I term as the medium term, absolute key challenge of decarbonising our economy, and particularly in this case, our energy grid. And of course, we're getting to 82 percent renewables by 2030, which is 82 months away. So 82 per cent in 82 months is a huge lift. And we'll need all the Federal Government policies working and we'll need full cooperation from every state which I am receiving, which we are receiving every state and territory. In relation to Eraring…

SABRA LANE: Sorry, does it make it easier, now that you've got Labor just about everywhere, to do that?

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, I think, frankly, bluntly, you can overstate that, because we work pretty hard to have good relations with all our state and territory colleagues. That's Anthony's approach. Yes, to a degree, if you are of the same party, it reduces a certain complicating factor, the temptation to make a political point. But we've worked pretty hard at having good relations across the board. Obviously, I've got great relations with the incoming state Labor team, the Cabinet, and there are various Shadow Ministers who will become Ministers. But we worked hard with the previous government and with the Tasmanian Government, with the ACT, which has a Greens Minister. That's just our approach, because it needs to be we have to be all in for this massive decarbonisation challenge. And frankly, again, may I make the point the outliers here are the Federal Opposition. I mean, all the states and territories, Labor, Liberal and Green are all on the same page. The outliers are Peter Dutton's Federal Opposition who have just said "we're not participating in this great national challenge and opportunity."

SABRA LANE: Your response just quickly to that. Andrew Bragg.

ANDREW BRAGG: Well, I mean, we're not a government in exile. Certainly, we'll develop very robust policies on emissions reduction before the next election. I'm very confident about that. It's essential.

SABRA LANE: Just quickly before I let you go, the Voice legislation is before Parliament this week. It'll be sent to an inquiry. How worried are you that the Opposition will vote no?
ANDREW BRAGG: I don't think anyone wants to frustrate the passage of the referendum. I think there's a history in Australia of referendum being facilitated by Parliament and I expect that to be maintained.

SABRA LANE: And Chris Bowen, to you, it's also a big week for you ahead with the Safeguard Mechanism to limit emissions from big polluters. You're trying to negotiate passage with the Greens and others. How close are you to a deal?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, every day is another day closer to this being determined by the Parliament. And I've had some very good discussions across the board with the crossbench and they'll continue into tomorrow and this is an opportunity I don't believe the Parliament can or will miss to decarbonise our biggest emitters. But just back to my point. Of course, Andrew's right to say they're not a government in exile, but they are an opposition who could support policies they proposed in government. I wouldn't need to negotiate with the Greens and the crossbench if the Liberal Party said, "well, we actually proposed this legislation in opposition, so we'll support it in government, or we'll work with you and negotiate." Peter Dutton has written the Liberal Party off in terms of this.

SABRA LANE: Sorry. Chris Bowen we're out of time. Andrew Bragg we're out of time. Thank you both so much for joining us this morning. Just recapping Labor's won power in New South Wales with at least 47 seats in the 93-seat lower house. This has been AM.
 
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