Interview with Sally Sara, ABC Radio National

SALLY SARA: After hours of late-night negotiations the COP 28 climate conference last week did something that no other climate meeting had done before, and that was a statement to begin to transition away from fossil fuels in energy systems.

There were plenty of controversial moments throughout the event with the conference President Sultan Al Jaber saying that without coal, oil and gas the world would go back into caves.

Well Australia's Chris Bowen, the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, was a central negotiator in Dubai and joins me now. Minister, welcome back to the program.

CHRIS BOWEN: Good morning Sally, thanks.

SALLY SARA: Minister, before we get to the COP agreement, as we've heard in Far North Queensland there is a flood emergency unfolding. The Prime Minister Anthony Albanese says that the ADF is on standby. We're going to hear shortly from some of the local mayors. What's your message to the people of Far North Queensland about how concerned the Federal Government is about the situation that's unfolding now?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well obviously, Sally, it's a serious situation and Minister Murray Watt, the Emergency Services Minister, has been integrally involved working with the Queensland Government in ensuring that our response is as timely and as full as is necessary and appropriate.

And of course, you know, our government has put in place many, many measures in terms of emergency response management after some of the learnings of the last few years and Murray's been reactive and of course working closely with the Prime Minister on this. Of course, we are alongside the people of North Queensland as they go through this, as we are with Australians who are increasingly dealing with natural disasters which are more frequent and more severe.

SALLY SARA: Mr Bowen, does the Federal Government and the ADF, do they have enough resources to deal with requests for help this summer amid the Far North Queensland floods, and also of course fears of bushfire amid high temperatures in other parts of the country? Do you have what's needed there ready to go?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, there's been a huge amount of preparation for this summer. This is going to be a long hot summer, no doubt about it. That's going to have all sorts of implications for bushfires and other things, and indeed the National Emergency Management Authority has been working very closely with the Government, briefed senior ministers recently on all the preparations. We've been working through all the potential scenarios. Of course there'll always be scenarios which are worse in [indistinct]. But every single drop of preparation that could go into this summer has gone into this summer, whether it be bushfires, heat waves, cyclones and other natural disasters, and how they interact with the rest of the Government and working with State Governments as well.

Yes, it is going to be a difficult summer, no doubt about that. We can't avoid that. What we can do is prepare for it and every preparation that could be done has been done.

SALLY SARA: Given that, is there concern about resourcing and is that playing into the decision about whether Australia will send a ship to the Red Sea as requested by the United States? Is that part of the equation of capacity

CHRIS BOWEN: I mean capacity to some degree will always be part of the equation, Sally. Of course, you know, when the National Security Committee considers all these matters the ADF will brief on capacity. But I mean I wouldn't draw too close a link and I don't want to comment on particular requests other than to say capacity's always an issue, but we always work those issues carefully through.

SALLY SARA: At COP28 in Dubai there of course was the announcement of a statement to transition away from fossil fuels. What does this mean for Australia, and will it change the Federal Government's policy in any way?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well I think, Sally, this was a very significant COP. I mean when you think of the COPs you think of Paris and the agreement to hold the world as low as possible under two degrees. You think of Glasgow and the step forward. And this was another big step forward, so it was in the same list as those COPs I just mentioned, Paris and Glasgow in my view. And we were very active in those participations and those negotiations leading to what I think is a strong outcome if you take it as a whole.

The transition away from fossil fuels that you mentioned, also the commitment to accelerate action this critical decade is important, resolve to pursue 1.5 degrees of warming and the tripling of renewable energy and doubling of energy efficiency, particularly important additions to the COP decision, which I think was a huge step forward.

Now in terms of Australia's role, obviously we have two roles. We have our own targets to reduce emissions, 43 per cent and net zero, and we've always said that they were a floor, not a ceiling. And as the report and the update I issued a few weeks ago shows, we are now within striking distance of reaching that target.

But secondly, Sally, our role is of course to help the rest of the world decarbonise, and that's why this was really important. The decision to transition away from fossil fuels was very important for Australia because we want to be a renewable energy superpower.

Now that means working very closely with key trading partners on their transition. It means being a stable and reliable partner in their transition, but really pushing forward our potential to supply things like green hydrogen and renewable energy for those countries that struggle, that don't have the natural advantages that we have. And that's a very important part of the very carefully managed and calibrated transition that is well underway in Australia.

SALLY SARA: Minister, there are reports today that the Electrical Trades Union is calling on the Federal Government to go harder on carbon emissions reduction and not fall behind the major states. Will you?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well that's a comment about the 2035 target and I expect much more commentary between now and announcing the 2035 target. That's the way these things, you know, all views are greatly received. And in fact we've started the process of consulting on our 2035 target, which will be a very important part of our future development, including Climate Change Authority advice. We've returned the Climate Change Authority as an important advisor to the cabinet and for the government on these things.

Now, I can tell you this, Sally. Our 2035 target will be two things. It'll be ambitious, it'll also be achievable. No point being one or the other. It needs to be ambitious, it needs to drive behaviour, it needs to send the important signals to the market, to investors, and it will do that. But it'll also be achievable.

You know, many people can put figures out there. Without a plan, a concrete plan to achieve them they're just figures. That's the approach we've taken all the way through. Not only putting out targets but putting out very concrete levers and mechanisms to achieve those targets.

Now one of the things we consider are state targets but it's only one of the things. We also look carefully at the state policies and, you know, the Energy Ministers and Climate Change Ministers Council are working very, very well together. And of course, in the Capacity Investment Scheme we announced recently we also announced renewable energy transformation agreements with the States and Territories, which we're well advanced in negotiating.

So all these things go into our 2035 target. These are all important inputs, but I think what I would underline is just as our 43 per cent emissions reduction target is achievable, our 2035 target will be both those things. Ambitious, very important that it drives behaviour, but it'll also be realistic and achievable.

SALLY SARA: The comments from the head of the Electrical Trades Union, are they helpful remarks do you think?

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, Michael Wright's an excellent Union Secretary and doing a very good in ensuring that we are seizing jobs opportunities. You know, we're going to need 32,000 more sparkies between now and 2030.

Michael understands, as many union leaders understand, and business and industry understands, the key to our economic success and prosperity is getting this transition right. Not everyone understands it. I see some, you know, more attempts at denial and delay from the LNP on the front page of one of our newspapers today questioning the jobs figures.

I mean anybody sensible understands that the key to our economic prosperity is getting this transition right, driving investment, bringing more investment to Australia, decarbonising our industry, showing the world's investors and consumers that Australia can be a decarbonised green energy economy.

Now we're on that same page, Michael Wright and the union's are on the same page, industry and business are on the same page. The only people not on that page are the Federal Opposition.

SALLY SARA: Why should critics of the Government listen to your promises when we've seen things like, particularly in the past month, the passing of the sea dumping bill after some correspondence from Santos? Are you trying to walk on both sides of the street there?

CHRIS BOWEN: No, what we're doing is a very sensible approach. Now carbon capture and storage, Sally, is like the goalkeeper on the field. Now the LNP would go only go out with a goalkeeper. They put too much store in carbon capture and storage. The Greens wouldn't go on the field with the goalkeeper. We think carbon capture and storage is a useful backup, it is not the key, it is not the answer, it is not panacea.

SALLY SARA: It's not proven yet.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, but every scenario, whether it is IPCC or International Energy Agency scenario, so in 2050 it's going to have to play a role. It's just going to have to and so it needs to work.

Now that's not just my view, as I said, that's the view of the IPCC, the International Energy Agency, everyone else.

Now do I think it's the panacea? Do I think much store has been put in it by the LNP and others? Yes, I do. I think it's got a role to play with - 

SALLY SARA: But what about you, is the government caving to companies like Santos by putting in - 

CHRIS BOWEN: No.

SALLY SARA:  These kind of amendments and bills, Minister?

CHRIS BOWEN: No, Santos made very clear that they thought that our safeguard mechanism reforms were ambitious for them, and they clearly would have a different view to us about some of those things. I make no apologies for that because we've brought out a policy which works for the Government, for the country in the national interest, not in the interest of any one particular company.

But in relation to carbon capture and storage, regardless of whether it happens in Australia or happens in international transfers, the principle is the same, particularly in hard to abate sectors, particularly in sectors where the technology is yet to come forward.

Now the role of gas in our transition is one I've talked about many times, Sally. You know, it is an important back up for renewable energy. People say that gas has emissions, of course it does. I'll tell you when it doesn't have emissions, when it's not switched on and if it's a back up for renewable energy and only switched on rarely, it's an important part of our transition. It's an important part of the transition for other countries as well.

As I said, carbon capture and storage can play a limited role in my view, but an important and vital back up role as we reduce emissions at source as well. That's a pragmatic and sensible approach. I know the Greens disagree on one hand. I know the Liberals disagree from the other perspective. We are taking a very sensible and pragmatic approach.

SALLY SARA: There are also very strong concerns obviously about these issues from the Pacific nations. How can they have faith in Australia when things like the sea dumping bill have been put through? And also the Federal Government is putting $1.5 billion behind the Middle Arm project near Darwin as well. Are you saying one thing and doing another?

CHRIS BOWEN: No, and, you know, if we are going to export green hydrogen to the rest of the world we need export facilities to do it. It doesn't export itself, Sally. And if we're going to play our role in decarbonising that is one of the key and essential roles that we can play, developing an Australian green hydrogen industry and exporting it. Middle Arm will be one of those export facilities and anybody who looks at these things in a dispassionate way I think gets that.

Now in the Pacific, I've worked very closely with my Pacific counterparts over the last week in Dubai, working together. The final text is not what they would have written, or indeed what I would have written. It's a consensus between 200 countries but we did play an important role in working with the Pacific in moving that ambition forward.

We also announced $100 million for the Pacific Resilience Fund, which is no small thing, which is an important step forward for the Pacific. Again, this is central to our climate agenda, it's central to our foreign affairs and recalibration of foreign affairs approach in the Pacific and essential to our economic agenda for a prosperous future as well.

This is a carefully calibrated transition. The Pacific understands that. Pacific Ministers with whom I work closely understand that, and they understand that we can play a role in decarbonising the rest of the world and it will involve the development of export facilities for green hydrogen and renewable energy.

SALLY SARA: Minister, thanks very much for joining RN Breakfast.

CHRIS BOWEN: Nice to chat to you, Sally, good on you.