Interview with Sally Sara, ABC RN

SALLY SARA: To Federal politics now, voters will likely head to next year's Federal Election without knowing the details of the Federal Government's 2035 emissions reduction target. Australia is due to outline its key climate change target in the coming months, but expert advice on the figure has reportedly been delayed in the wake of Donald Trump's election victory in the United States. It comes as concerns with the Opposition's energy policy policies burst into the open. Chris Bowen is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy and joins me now. Minister, welcome back to Radio National Breakfast.

CHRIS BOWEN: Thanks Sally, good morning.

SALLY SARA: Can you give us a bit of clarity here? You've been waiting on advice from the Climate Change Authority before announcing Australia's next climate target. The Authority’s Chair, Matt Kean, has confirmed the advice will come in several months. Does that mean that you won't be able to take a 2035 target to the next election?

CHRIS BOWEN: So, Sally, what it means is that we'll comply with the law, the Climate Change Act of Australia, which we put into place with the support of the crossbench. In my view, it is the most rigorous process for setting a climate target in the world. Analogous with a couple of like-minded countries, but very much the best practice that it runs through that we cannot notify the UNFCCC of a new 2035 target without the advice of the Climate Change Authority. It runs through what the Climate Change Authority must consider in giving me and the government that advice. What consultation they must undertake and that must be made public in due course and then the government considers their advice and considers whether to accept it. That's a very rigorous process and one that we intend to comply with. We'll comply with the law. And because it's a good law and a rigorous law, gone are the days when the government can just go off and name a target without consulting anyone, as Scott Morrison did.

Now, Matt Kean, as you said, who's doing an excellent job as the Chair of the Climate Change Authority, has consulted with his international counterparts. I think he had 20 meetings with fellow chief advisers to governments in Baku at COP and consulted with his board, the Independent Board, and they have decided that they need a bit more time to work through the international permutations and that is a common view around the world of governments and climate change authorities that are working that through at the moment. There are 197 parties to the COP. Only five have named a 2035 target at this point and many are going through a similar process. Now to your question about the election. I don't know when the election will be, but I'll be complying with the law. And the law will be my will be my primary guidance as to when and how we will notify a 2035 target.

SALLY SARA: Have you been given a closer estimate as to when these details will be coming out? Is it a matter of weeks or months ahead that you're expecting it?

CHRIS BOWEN: Several months is what the Climate Change Authority Board has said to me that they need. Now, they'll do it as expeditiously as they can. But for example, I mean, the Donald Trump point that you raised, which is a legitimate one. Now, we don't know yet whether he'll be able to abolish the Inflation Reduction Act. The Inflation Reduction Act, of course, is the United States is a piece of administrative law. But the idea is that it reduces the cost of renewable energy for everyone. And that's a negative if that goes. On the other hand, if the United States is less interested in renewable energy investment, that investment's got to go somewhere and Australia will be right at the top of the list looking for that investment and encouraging it to Australia. So, there are swings and roundabouts about how it will apply to Australia. And I think it's perfectly reasonable for the Climate Change Authority to tell the government we need a bit more time to work this through.

SALLY SARA: Minister, the authority flagged earlier this year that it's considering a 2035 target in the range of 65 percent to 75 percent cut on 2005 levels. Is that the ballpark that you think we're going to be in?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I'm not going – I’ve just run through, Sally, the very rigorous process that one the Climate Change Authority has got to go through. It's a very serious point. I mean, we wrote this into the law deliberately because it's an important thing that shouldn't be done by governments at whim, as Scott Morrison did. When he went off and he named a net zero target, the Climate Change Authority didn't even know. We've got a much more rigorous approach. Now, they also have to consult and they're going through that process. Under the law, they must consult. So, I'm not going to start second-guessing what they ultimately advise me or what I will advise the Cabinet or what the Cabinet will decide. But I am more than happy to run you through the process. Now, if you look around the world, as I said, there's five countries that have named their targets so far. They range from 45 percent for Canada to 81 for the United Kingdom and a range in between, many of them in the 60s. But I'm not going to start speculating on what Australia will do because there's a process well underway.

SALLY SARA: Ok, Minister, Late last week, your Ministerial colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Tanya Plibersek, declared that your government didn't approve any new coal mines in 2024. But moments earlier she'd approved the extension of three coal mines and a Greenfield site. Even if you don't technically consider those new mines, do you understand the criticism that that's a lot of new coal?

CHRIS BOWEN: I certainly understand the debate, but I also think it's important this debate, Sally, be based in facts and it isn't always. Yes, Minister Plibersek very assiduously always applies the law as Environment Minister. She's the first Environment Minister in Australian history to reject a coal mine application, for example. Now, those four mines last week sometimes get lost in the debate, including in comments from the Greens Party that these are metallurgical coal mines, i.e. for steel making. Now, there is no bigger fan or promoter of green steel in Australia than me, but I'm also very realistic about how quickly it will be in place and it's not in place yet or in the immediate future. So, we are going to need coal for steel making for years to come. Green steel is coming, but it's not commercial yet and it's not viable across the board on a great scale yet. And that means we just have to be realistic. We are going to need coal for steel making. Now, we are investing in green hydrogen and green steel and working with countries to ensure that we can move away from coal not only for steel making but for energy generation. But it's not there yet. So, when you hear no new coal, I really think, you know, it's best just to break it down and have a bit of more of a facts-based conversation. One we’ll apply the law -

SALLY SARA: But it is new coal coming into the system.

CHRIS BOWEN: For steel making, that's correct. And you know, Sally, if you've got, you know, if you want to argue that we can't need coal to make steel, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you.

SALLY SARA: To move on to a different issue, Minister. Video emerged late last week of National Senator Matt Canavan saying his party's nuclear policy is not serious and is not going to cut it. No one in the party room seems to be backing those comments. What do you make of those remarks?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I mean, there's very little I agree with Matt Canavan about, but he's telling the truth that it's a political fix by Peter Dutton to pretend to be acting on climate change. I mean, he's very transparent about that, Matt Canavan, and it is. And that's the only possible rational explanation for applying such a ridiculous policy of relying on coal-fired power in Australia for longer while we wait for the most expensive form of power generation and slowest to build in the world, to come on. To reject the science, to reject the work of the CSIRO. That is what Peter Dutton has done. His costings were dead before arrival based on just ridiculous assumptions about economic growth and heavy industry in Australia, some of which we just talked about. So, I think Matt Canavan on this occasion is telling the truth. It's a political fix. It's one which doesn't survive contact with economic or environmental reality and one that we're more than happy to debate every day until the next election.

SALLY SARA: Minister, we'll need to leave it there. Thank you for your time this morning.

CHRIS BOWEN: Thanks, Sally, and all the best for Christmas and congratulations on your permanent appointment. Look forward to many chats next year, no doubt.

SALLY SARA: Thank you very much. That's Chris Bowen there, the Minister for Climate Change and Energy.