Interview with Sally Sara, ABC RN Breakfast

SALLY SARA: The Federal Government is committed to a target to cut emissions by 62 to 70 per cent by 2035, based on 2005 levels. Labor says it is both ambitious and achievable, but there's criticism from the Opposition and crossbench that the range is either too high or too low. Chris Bowen is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy. Minister, welcome back to Breakfast.

CHRIS BOWEN: Good morning, Sally. Thanks for having me on.

SALLY SARA: Earlier, I spoke with Ralph Regenvanu, the Minister for Climate Change in Vanuatu. This is what he had to say about the target range.

[Excerpt]

RALPH REGENVANU: Well, it's far short of what's required to keep communities in the Pacific, but also Australia safe. It should have been a cut of at least 75 per cent on 2005 levels. And that's according to the science to limit global warming, which is a target we all agreed upon in Paris, to 1.5 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial levels.

[End of excerpt]

SALLY SARA: What's your reaction to his remarks?

CHRIS BOWEN: That's Ralph's view. I understand that. That's not the view of the Pacific Island ministers who I spoke to yesterday. They'll speak for themselves, but the Pacific Island ministers I've spoken to have indicated to me they recognise how ambitious this is, which it is, Sally, which it is. I mean, let's just go through what this requires briefly. It requires, in effect, a doubling of our rate of emissions reduction based on the last decade. It's equivalent to taking out the transport sector’s emissions twice over the next 10 years in Australia. So all the emissions that come from transport, removing them twice. It's an 81 per cent cut, up to an 81 per cent cut in per capita terms since 2005. I mean, this is no small thing, Sally, and it certainly compares well internationally. You've always got to be careful about international comparisons because every country is facing different circumstances. But our range of 62 to 70, compared to many that have been announced around the world, compares very well. And then over the last 24 hours, Europe's been considering a 63 to 70 per cent cut, which shows on the same accounting basis as ours. So that shows that we are right up there with the most ambitious countries in the world, as we should be, as we need to be. But also, Sally, it has to be achievable.

Now, with all due respect to those commentators who say we should be doing more, they don't need to deliver, the Government does. And the Government has set out yesterday not only a target but a comprehensive plan to help us get there. And it's all very well to say, we want more, but you've got to explain how. Now, the Climate Change Authority in their report, I'm sure you've read it, indicates that a target higher than 70 would involve unacceptable environmental, social and economic costs for our country. Now, I believe acting on climate change is a huge economic opportunity for our country. I really do believe that. But I also believe it has to be managed carefully and calibrated carefully. The biggest economic transition in our country's history does need to be handled carefully. And commentators who say they want more, okay, I understand and respect that. But my job is to deliver, not just to comment and say, well, that could be better, but to deliver real emissions reduction, as we will do.

SALLY SARA: I spoke this morning with Professor Brendan Mackey, a review editor for the current Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's seventh assessment report. He says current global policies for mitigation won't limit global warming. Let's take a listen.

[Excerpt]

BRENDAN MACKEY: So – and latest scientific estimates suggest we're going to hit that 1.5 degrees most likely in the next three to five years. So when do we need net zero emissions? Well, we need it yesterday.

[End of excerpt]

SALLY SARA: That's Professor Brendan Mackey there. What do you think of his remarks?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, there's no doubt there's more to do. I mean, we do need to recognise global progress so far. I mean, about 10 years ago, the world was on track for about 4 degrees of warming. That has been reduced by global action to between 2 and 2.8. Is that good enough yet, Sally? No, it's not. Is it a lot better than 4? Yes. Is there more to do? Yes. Do countries around the world recognise that? Yes. So you've got countries now setting their NDC, their nationally determined contribution between now and the COP in Brazil in a month or so, a couple of months' time, Australia yesterday, other countries around the world. Now, I mean, in terms of commentary, I mean, perhaps I could to quote you Todd Stern, who was very important in setting up the Paris Agreement. He said yesterday: today's announcement by Australia is encouraging indeed, showing major emitters can do what the climate crisis demands. I mean, there's someone who is a former US envoy, who was very important in setting up the Paris Accord. He knows how difficult these things are to deliver. Not just him, there's been other commentaries similar to that. 

This is – as I've said many times, we need to be ambitious and achievable. You can be either and you can be commenting, saying it's too ambitious or too achievable. I believe we've got the balance right. I believe it's an achievable plan, but an ambitious one.

SALLY SARA: You're listening to Radio National Breakfast. My guest is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Chris Bowen. How do you think this target will impact Australia's bid to host COP31 in conjunction with the Pacific in 2026?

CHRIS BOWEN: I think they're separate matters. I did hear Ralph correctly say the Pacific’s strongly backing our bid. We set our national target on our national interest and our maximum level of ambition, separate process on the COP bid. Turkiye, our competitor, has not yet set their target, and their 2030 target is a reduction on business as usual as opposed to a reduction compared to 2005. So we're more than happy to be compared. But we'll continue our discussions with Turkiye. The situation remains, Sally, that the vast majority of the constituency supports our bid, our constituency being Western Europe and others. But it does need to work on consensus, and that means seeking an agreement with Turkiye, and we'll continue to progress that.

SALLY SARA: The Shadow Treasurer, Ted O'Brien, says the announcement is, quote, “an absolute offence to Australians struggling with the cost of living”. How are you going to mitigate these initial costs?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, the Coalition doesn’t believe in climate action. There's no surprise there, nor do they accept climate science. I mean, when I released the National Risk Assessment earlier this week, they questioned the assumptions, and senior members of the Coalition questioned the science. I mean, these guys are just on the wrong side of modernity and they will always play that cheap politics. What we will do is counter that with the facts, pointing out – we yesterday released Treasury modelling, CSIRO modelling, showing our economy growing, continuing to grow, growing more in a net zero scenario, showing that energy prices under a disorderly scenario, i.e. not proceeding with renewable energy and relying on coal for longer would be much higher for Australians. So Mr O'Brien can continue the politics of denial and delay if he wishes. I think Australians know better than that and see through that climate denial sort of rhetoric.

SALLY SARA: Why should listeners trust Labor on costs when it comes to energy, given the promises to bring down energy bills by $275 – that wasn't met, was it?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, Australians know what we said in 2022. They know the challenges that we came up against in the global environment. And they cast judgement on that a few months ago, and they told us to keep going with the task. They told us to keep working.

SALLY SARA: [Talks over] But why should they trust you now? You got it wrong.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, Sally, if you'd allow me to answer your question, they told us to keep going. Yesterday, we indicated we will keep going and released Treasury modelling, CSIRO modelling – not by me or Jim Chalmers, by those agencies independently to support the case that action on climate change and action on cost of living is not a choice. Complementary actions, what's good for your pocket is also good for the planet. Thousands of Australians know that. The thousand Australians who put in a home battery yesterday know it. The thousand Australians who put in a home battery today know it, that we're delivering that. Today marks the 60,000th battery installation, which the Prime Minister will mark today, because Australians are getting on with the job, as the Government is.

SALLY SARA: In order to achieve the 2035 target, the landing of renewable and transmission lines will be a significant component. What assurances are you giving to the business and farming sectors on this?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, well that's true, and I was pleased with the response of the farming community yesterday, National Farmers' Federation and the Acting Chief Executive, Sue McCluskey, also the business community, which recognises that this is a big lift for the country. The BCA, the Australian Industry Group, the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry all said, “Look, this is going to require a lot of work, a lot of investment, a lot of cooperation, but we believe it's achievable”. I'm meeting later today with investor groups, business groups on rolling up the sleeves and getting on with the job of delivering these targets.

As I said at the outset, we don't pretend this is easy or automatic and not a big lift in national achievement. And it's going to require constant work and constant cooperation between government and business. We're going to need more investment. We're going to need to create a lot more renewable energy, but not just renewable energy. Everyone, understandably focuses on the electricity sector. It's our biggest emitting sector, but heavy industry, transport, the lot. And some sectors will be easier to abate than others. Others require a lot more research and development – I'm thinking particularly of agriculture – but we'll work closely with the National Farmers' Federation, with Farmers for Climate Action. Farmers, in my experience, Sally, understand that climate change is real and understand that action is urgent. The National Party doesn't understand it, but farmers do. 

SALLY SARA: The press release announcing the final decision to extend the North West Shelf Project until 2070 in WA came out about 3pm last Friday. This is when the Pacific Islands Forum was wrapping up. Is that just a coincidence? Why wasn't that announced earlier?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, Minister Watt announced it when he made his decision. I mean, to be fair, Sally, I don't think anyone could accuse the Government of not being transparent about this. Minister Watt announced his preliminary decision, what, more than a month ago, two months ago, I'd say. That's been out there for public display. This was hardly a secret. He said that he would need to apply conditions. He was in a situation where he couldn't talk about those conditions under law while he was providing Woodside with what those conditions would be. They're very strict. Once that was sorted, once that was settled, he could make that further announcement.

SALLY SARA: Minister, thank you very much for your time on Breakfast. Thank you.

CHRIS BOWEN: Thanks, Sally.

SALLY SARA: That's the Minister for Climate Change there, Chris Bowen, speaking to me.