Interview with Sarah Ferguson, ABC 7.30

SARAH FERGUSON: Chris Bowen, welcome to 7.30.

CHRIS BOWEN: Thanks, Sarah.

SARAH FERGUSON: Now is the extension of the Eraring coal-fired power station a sign that the very ambitious rollout of renewables is not moving fast enough?

CHRIS BOWEN: No, not in my view. Of course, it was announced in 2022 that the closure of the Eraring power station would be brought forward by seven years.

Now the New South Wales State Government has intervened to ensure that two units remain open for another two years, so it is still five years earlier than we were expecting just a couple of years ago.

Now I agree with the New South Wales Government. We have got to ensure that places like Eraring stay open not a day longer than they should, but close not a day earlier than they can because we need to manage reliability as part of the very complicated transition.

SARAH FERGUSON: Now, when, just on AEMO (Australian Energy Market Operator), when there are warnings about blackouts, do you take those seriously, or have they now proven too many times not to eventuate?

CHRIS BOWEN: I take everything that AEMO says seriously but AEMO itself, Daniel Westerman, the chief executive said this is not a prediction.

So, again, look at this latest statement. They referred to the more than four gigawatts of new energy that's come on since the last ESOO or is projected to come on but then they assumed that every one of those projects runs six months late, to see what that does to the system.

Now, not all of those projects are or will run late. Many of them are running perfectly on time but of course, it is prudent for them to assume some delays and then work out what that means.

Now again, to your point, you're right. Every single electricity statement of opportunity for the last several years has pointed to reliability gaps, ie to shortfalls. They haven't eventuated because the statement does what it is intended to do and brings forward the investment.

Now if you look again at this latest statement, they had if you like, two streams. One of the streams was with government policy i.e. government policy gets implemented and that showed that those reliability shortfalls were dealt with under that stream and that wasn't even including all the government policy like the Capacity Investment Scheme which we are about to roll out.

So again, there is a massive job to do and for those people who say Australia should be doing more, I just simply say, well, look at the size of the task we are undertaking.

SARAH FERGUSON: Yes, it is colossal.

CHRIS BOWEN: From 30 per cent to 82 per cent, it is a big task.

SARAH FERGUSON: Is it possible actually that you set a target that was unrealistic?

CHRIS BOWEN: No, not at all because it is important to be ambitious and achievable and it is easy to be either of those things. You can be ambitious but have no idea how you're going to achieve it or you can have a very achievable target which doesn't stretch the country, stretch the effort. We've got to stretch the effort because the climate change task is so urgent.

SARAH FERGUSON: I want to go to nuclear energy. Now we're waiting for the Opposition's policy. They've so far declined to tell us where these nuclear reactors could be sited. I just wondered if your department had done any assessment on potential sites, where they'd be located and what electorates would be affected?

CHRIS BOWEN: No, because this is Opposition policy. We can only go on what the Opposition has been telling us, that there is going to six or seven sites.

But here's the thing Sarah, they know where they will be. I mean David Littleproud has said we've done polling in these communities. So that means he knows where they are. What's the big secret? Why the delay?

Peter Dutton said we will be releasing these sites in a couple of weeks. That was 11 weeks ago. So there is a lot at stake here. This is going to be a key determining factor in the next election.

You know our energy policy, you know what it is. You know what we've done. The Opposition has been talking for two years about the need for nuclear energy, but they won't release the sites which is very important, the cost, they deny the science of the costings. They deny the CSIRO's work...

SARAH FERGUSON: Dispute, I think, in relation to some of the costings. We need to see.

CHRIS BOWEN: They dispute, okay, I would say deny but sure, they dispute the experts and they say they know more.

Well, the fact of the matter is, report after report, after report shows that nuclear energy is the most expensive form of energy.

But here is the other thing, the key thing, Sarah, this will delay this important transition that we've just talked about. Their whole plan is to say, look, we don't need all these renewables because we're going to do nuclear, and we can keep the coal in the system for longer.

That means higher emissions and more unreliability because ageing coal-fired power stations are very unreliable.

SARAH FERGUSON: Just on the matter of timetable though. If, as they say, these nuclear plants could be operating by 2040 and we know there are a lot of ifs surrounding that prediction, that timetable would allow them to reach 2050 emissions reductions targets, if they're right?

CHRIS BOWEN: It is hugely ambitious to say that. I mean nuclear reactors can take 20 years to build and that's before you built a regulatory system, built a workforce. None of which we have in Australia. That's years of effort just in and of itself.

And here is the point, Sarah, you talk about 2050, sure but 2050 is not the key year. It is what we do between now and each weigh point, between now 2030 and 2035. This is the critical decade.
This is the critical decade and we're four years into the critical decade.

SARAH FERGUSON: So the thing that we often hear about in relation to where we need to get to is how difficult particularly the last 10 per cent is going to be. So is it not then prudent just to lift the ban on, lift the moratorium on nuclear energy in Australia because we don't know what's going to happen to small modular reactors in the future. Why not lift the ban as a hedge against the future?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, a couple of points. Firstly, if you lifted the ban, you would be sending mixed signals to investors.

Secondly, there is no nuclear industry, nuclear power industry in the world which hasn't required massive government subsidies, massive government subsidies.

Angus Taylor says it won't require government subsidies, their policy. I can't wait to see the details of this policy because it will not survive contact with reality.

So just lifting the ban is not an energy policy. That is not an energy policy. If you're going to take Australia down the road of nuclear, you've got to tell the Australian people where they will be, you've got to tell them the costs and you have got to tell them what government subsidies are involved.

SARAH FERGUSON: But are you actually opposed, never mind the fact that it is not a full-blown nuclear policy, we all can see that, but do you object just to lifting the ban in a way to prepare for a future that we don't know the contents of it yet?

CHRIS BOWEN: For Australia I do, because it is not the right answer for Australia. There is no scenario in which Australia, with the best renewable resources in the world, challenges in rolling it out sure, but the best renewable resources to harness in the world, which is the cheapest form of energy available.

Report after report, the latest GenCost just the most recent example showing us that it is the cheapest form of energy. There is no scenario in which we have to reduce emissions in this critical decade, we have to have the cheapest form of energy and the fastest to build form of energy. Renewable energy is fast to build and cheap to run. Nuclear energy is slow to build and extraordinarily expensive to build.

SARAH FERGUSON: I just have one question I want to put to you from things that the Greens leader, Adam Bandt said yesterday, talking about the Future Made in Australia particularly in relation to green hydrogen and critical minerals. He made the point that Australians should have some ownership if we're going to go ahead, use taxpayers’ money to develop those industries. Do you agree with the Greens that there should be guarantees for the Australian taxpayer?

CHRIS BOWEN: I think Adam, with due respect, has conflated two issues there. He has called for government ownership and then talked about reservations, and they are very different things.
I don't support government ownership in these places. The model that we are going down is a very successful model. You've got the CEFC, the world's largest green bank, the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, created by the last Labor government, now the world's largest green bank and ARENA who will be in charge of their appropriate parts of the Future Made in Australia agenda and then the tax system.

SARAH FERGUSON: And what about the idea of protecting Australians in the way that they weren't protected when the gas industry was developed?

CHRIS BOWEN: We've got to build a green hydrogen industry. We don't have any at the moment.

SARAH FERGUSON: Is he right on principle, that there should be some protections?

CHRIS BOWEN: I think when you are looking at something like green hydrogen, of course, what we will do is ensure that we can be a very strong supplier to the rest of the world. Germany, amongst others, is very keen to buy Australian green hydrogen.

SARAH FERGUSON: We're talking about protecting Australians, not just creating a successful export industry.

CHRIS BOWEN: And we'll ensure that there is enough for domestic supply as well.

SARAH FERGUSON: So you acknowledge that there were mistakes made when the gas industry was developed that left Australians in the lurch compared to our international clients?

CHRIS BOWEN: I don't think it is controversial to say that looking back, could things have been done differently back several decades ago? You can have that conversation.

SARAH FERGUSON: You won't make the same mistakes again?

CHRIS BOWEN: We will ensure that there is green hydrogen. Let me put it this way, Sarah, our plans work which they will. There will be more than enough green hydrogen to export and to power Australian industry as well.

SARAH FERGUSON: I just want to ask you a couple of questions not related to energy. Does the Albanese Government support the process underway at the ICC following the prosecutor's request for warrants for Benjamin Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant?

CHRIS BOWEN: Of course, we support international law.

SARAH FERGUSON: Do you support that specific process?

CHRIS BOWEN: You don't pick and choose. If you support international law and you support the International Court of Justice, then you say that now. Peter Dutton has a different view. He has flagged ...

SARAH FERGUSON: I'm asking you about your view for now. Leave him aside for the moment.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I think it is relevant to point the different approach. We respect international law. I said some things about this at a different context on the weekend, as well. We support international law and that's an appropriate thing.

Either you do or you don't and we do.

SARAH FERGUSON: Chris Bowen, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

CHRIS BOWEN: A great pleasure, Sarah.