Interview with Sarah Ferguson, ABC 7.30

SARAH FERGUSON: Chris Bowen is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy. Chris Bowen, welcome to 7.30.

CHRIS BOWEN: Thanks for asking me on, Sarah.

SARAH FERGUSON: Now, the Climate Change Authority began its work considering a target for 2035 by asking people to consider a range between 65 and 75. You said today that anything over 70 was unachievable. Can you define unachievable?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, the Climate Change Authority entered into a lot of consultation with experts and across industry and scientists and recommended to us that we go for the maximum possible level of achievement, and we accepted that advice. And they also recommended that the maximum possible level of achievement was 62 to 70 per cent emissions reduction and that is very ambitious for our country, let's be clear.

SARAH FERGUSON: Sure.

CHRIS BOWEN: I've seen commentary saying it's not ambitious enough, but let's be clear about what we've accepted today - it is a halving of emissions from today; it's a per capita reduction of emissions of up to 81 per cent from 2005. It's the equivalent of taking the transport emissions out of Australia twice over the next 10 years. So, this is, as I've often said, it needed to be ambitious and achievable. The Climate Change Authority, which consists of a very well respected board chaired by Matt Keen and also the Chief Scientist and other people with strong scientific and industry background, recommended this to us as the maximum possible level of ambition, which we have accepted and said we are up for.

SARAH FERGUSON: I accept all those things about the seriousness of the Climate Change Authority. Did you ask them about a target over 70, and why it couldn't be achieved?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, that's very clear in their report. They looked at this very closely, Sarah, as you know. It's a very comprehensive report, which runs through the science, the economics and what's achievable.

SARAH FERGUSON: Can you boil it down, why-

CHRIS BOWEN: And they say in their report, in their advice to me, some people say more than 70. We do not believe this is achievable without unacceptable economic, social and environmental short-term costs.

Now, if you want, some people might argue there should be greater environmental, social and costs. That's not a view I share. This is a target which I think stands up to international scrutiny. It is at the ambitious end of international targets. We're proud of that. That's a good thing. It is a target which is in the economic best interests of the country - the CSIRO modelling shows that, the Treasury modelling shows that. And, it's an ambitious target.

SARAH FERGUSON: So, will you legislate it? When you legislated the 2030 target you said it was absolutely essential for business certainty. Isn’t that the same as now?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I said it was ideal and preferable at the time because a new Government had come in and it was important to show-

SARAH FERGUSON: There’s no question that you were signalling that it was important for business certainty, whatever the words were you used.

CHRIS BOWEN: And it would still be ideal.

SARAH FERGUSON: So, will you do that?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, Sarah, if I could just answer the question, please. What we will do is, our target is there. It does not need to be legislated. It is not a requirement. We will notify the UFCCC of the new target. It will have force under the Paris Accord. If the Parliament shows the willingness to legislate it, the Greens - the Liberals have already said they won't because they don't believe in climate change - but if the Greens indicate a willingness to vote for it then we'll take it to the Parliament. If they’re not, we won't.

SARAH FERGUSON: That figure Jacob used of 90 per cent renewables, are you going to bring in a new Renewable Energy Target to hit 90 per cent?

CHRIS BOWEN: No. What we’re doing, we're continuing with our work to 82 per cent renewables by 2030, which is going well. There are challenges but we are also making good progress - 1,000 Australians a day are putting in a home battery, for example. Tomorrow, the Prime Minister will mark the 60,000th battery installed. And then we've commissioned a post-2030 market review, the Nelson review which has already provided an interim report, which has been warmly and widely received across the sector as the right answer for the 2030-2035 period. We're waiting for a final report but it's pretty clear the direction of travel. And my state and territory ministers and I have agreed that that is a very good direction to follow.

SARAH FERGUSON: So, one of the criticisms that I've heard today about what you released today is the absence of details on those parts of the economy that will have to do the very heavy lifting. For example, will you be demanding more from those heavy-emitting industries, those industries captured by what's called the safeguard mechanism?

CHRIS BOWEN: Sarah, with respect, I don't think that's a fair criticism. We put out, you know, hundreds and hundreds of pages of detail today, a new net zero plan. And importantly, six sector plans.

SARAH FERGUSON: There's no specific details on what you're going to look to for from the safeguard mechanism, which is an essential part of this heavy lift, isn’t it?

CHRIS BOWEN: There's an industry sector plan written by the Industry Minister and I, which is detailed with due respect. It goes through the decarbonisation pathways for industry, which is what investors asked us for. They said to us as a Government, it's important for us to know what you think the decarbonisation pathway is so we can invest in the right places. And we listened to that consultatively. And those six sector plans are very detailed and serious documents with new initiatives for the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, the National Reconstruction Fund, electric vehicle charging and, importantly, energy performance and energy efficiency.

But to your question, our Safeguard Reforms, which we legislated early in our term, are working well. They’ve already delivered, in their first year, on-site emissions reduction at the facilities, the big industrial facilities, equal to a third of Australia’s aviation emissions. That’s good progress.

SARAH FERGUSON: And are you going to be expecting them to do more?

CHRIS BOWEN: There’s a review next year.

SARAH FERGUSON: But ahead of that?

CHRIS BOWEN: No, there’s a review next year. We- it only started operating, really, in the last 12 months. Give it a chance to work. We’re seeing good results so far, but inevitably, after a couple of years of operation there’ll be things which, after a proper review, we think, well, that could be working better. We will do that as part of our normal, methodical, careful process.

SARAH FERGUSON: What about transport? Obviously, our vehicle emissions are still going up.

CHRIS BOWEN: It’s been a challenge. Because you can institute a reform now with the average length of service of an Australian car being well into a second decade. So, i.e. you buy a car today, it’s operating for 15 or more years, and so it takes time to turn that around. Our New Vehicle Efficiency Standards are working in terms of much more choice for people. A lot of EVs models coming into Australia already, and more coming in the next 12 months. Very exciting. You’ll be able to get an EV, Sarah, which is cheap, which is expensive, which is your- a big, or a small, whatever you like. That range is increasing dramatically. Also, our new- our electric vehicle tax cut has been really driving a high take up. But of course, I’m not here to pretend to you that all of- that has all of a sudden impacted on emissions yet. It’s going to take quite a while for it to have the full impact on our emissions.

SARAH FERGUSON: Let me talk about prices. Obviously, Jacob there just reviewed the question that dogged- obviously dogged you in the first term for a long time, when we were going to see prices reduced. Now, in the Treasury papers that were released today along with the rest of the material you’re talking about, it says that under the, what’s called the disorderly transition, that is not doing what you are- what you have committed to today. There would be an increase in wholesale electricity prices to the tune of 70 per cent on average by 2030. So can you guarantee now that electricity prices will go down as more renewable energy sources come on?

CHRIS BOWEN: I can guarantee you that renewables are the cheapest form of energy.

SARAH FERGUSON: That’s not the question.

CHRIS BOWEN: No, and- but I’m giving you a serious answer, Sarah, with respect. And I’m pointing to the work that’s out there from the Australian Energy Market Commission, which showed energy prices coming down 13 per cent if we stick to the plan of more renewables. And the Treasury model that you pointed to, showing energy prices will be lower with more renewable energy, and higher if we sweat those coal assets for longer, as the Liberal Party is calling for, for example. So, that is what we need to do, the biggest impact that we’re facing both on reliability and costs is coal-fired power, which is breaking down a lot. We’ve got big coal-fired power stations out at the moment, for example, that drives up prices. We need to replace that. These coal-fired power stations, they’ve served Australia well, but they’re getting very-

SARAH FERGUSON: Help people understand it. How long will that crossover point take, before those renewable resources start to drive down prices?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, for many Australians they already are. If you’ve got solar panels and a battery, as a thousand Australians a day are doing, you find your energy prices falling dramatically. And that helps, also, those who haven’t done that. Because when we get more batteries into the system, that reduces peak demand, which reduces prices for everyone. All of us, whether we have a battery or not, prices come down. But that doesn’t happen overnight, Sarah.

SARAH FERGUSON: So how long will it take?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, again, we’ll have another default market offer out in the next few months, you’ll start to see the impacts. But look, we’ve never pretended, in the face of international energy pressures, that all this happens easily or quickly. But we also don’t walk away from the fact that renewables are the cheapest form of energy ever known to humankind.

SARAH FERGUSON: Will this policy rise and fall, succeed or fail, on electricity prices?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, if you’re meaning in terms of public support, yeah. I think that is very important. Because Australians, I think, do want to see climate action – despite the climate denial of some in politics – the vast majority of Australians do want to see climate action. But they also care about cost of living, because it’s right before them every day. We have to, as a government, deal with both. And that’s exactly what we are doing, and again, the good news is, whilst we do face headwinds and challenges, of course, the fundamental fact is that what’s good for your pocket is good for the planet, and vice versa. Renewables are the cheapest form of energy and the lowest emissions, that is a good thing. It’s not a conflict. It means keeping on going with this plan is the right answer for those Australians who, very rightly, are concerned about cost of living. And also, those Australians who are very rightly concerned about climate change.

SARAH FERGUSON: Chris Bowen, thank you very much indeed for joining us, particularly on this day. Thank you.

CHRIS BOWEN: Always a pleasure, Sarah.

SARAH FERGUSON: Thank you very much.