Interview with Sarah Morris, ABC NewsRadio

SARAH MORRIS: Let's talk energy for a moment. New analysis from the renewables sector has found that the Coalition's plan to rapidly expand nuclear energy production in Australia would drive up electricity costs for people with rooftop solar.

Last year the Federal Opposition Leader, Peter Dutton, identified the sites where he wants to put his nuclear power plants, and he says bringing in nuclear power would cut power bills by 44 per cent.

But this new analysis from the Smart Energy Council has found that for homes with solar panels bills would actually go up by $1,100 a year and in fact some rooftop solar would have to be turned off at certain times.

Chris Bowen is the Federal Minister for Energy and Climate Change and joins us. Good morning, Minister.

CHRIS BOWEN: Good morning to you, Sarah.

SARAH MORRIS: So I know certainly at the moment there are laws in place where some states can switch off rooftop solar, and the Australian Energy Market Operator says there's an urgent need for these emergency powers right across Australia. So do we already have a case where we have too much rooftop solar? 

CHRIS BOWEN: Curtailment now occurs quite rarely, it's only really to manage the grid for safety purposes, but what this analysis points to is some pretty self-evident facts frankly.

What you need to support an increasingly renewable energy system is flexible power and nuclear isn't flexible. Once a nuclear power station is turned on, it stays on, much like coal, and so with the Opposition saying under their policy that nuclear would be on a lot of the time, the vast majority of the time with a very high capacity factor, our energy grid not only needs enough energy, it can't have too much energy, so when you have that always on power from nuclear, it would mean that people's rooftop solar, which feeds into the grid, would be turned off, by analysis around 67 percent of the time, or 67 percent of the capacity.

So that really does really change the economics of rooftop solar for people who've made that investment in good faith, and have done the right thing, done their bit to help reduce emissions and their own bills, but Peter Dutton's plan really isn't compatible with Australia being the world leader on rooftop solar.

SARAH MORRIS: Well I guess then, do we need as many of the renewable energy projects, the large scale solar farms and the wind farms, these sorts of things, if we're generating enough on our roofs?

CHRIS BOWEN: Really quite different things; the energy generated by heavily renewable system backed up by gas peaking and firming, which is much more flexible than coal or nuclear.

Yes, we do need to keep going with the drive towards more renewables, because that is the key to a more reliable energy system when you consider that the biggest threat to reliability in our energy system at the moment is coal fired power, which is breaking down all the time and is increasingly unreliable, reducing bills because renewables are the cheapest form of energy, and of course reducing emissions.

So the plan that's outlined in the Integrated Systems Plan, which does show continuing strong investment, and we've seen that strong investment by the way in all the latest figures, is very important for all those reasons, but nuclear is not compatible with that plan that Australians have embraced by being the world's heaviest investors in rooftop solar.

SARAH MORRIS: I guess nuclear is clean though. It is expensive, as has been pointed out, but if we get down the track, decades to come, and we've got these nuclear reactors, would we need as much renewable energy at that point?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, the Opposition does show in their own modelling, their own policy, a very substantial slow down in renewable roll out, and I don't think that's a good thing, and this is a key contest. To make room for nuclear under their scheme they have to curtail existing rooftop solar and see a massive pause, and – their words, not mine – a massive pause on renewable energy investment.  Now, Australia –

SARAH MORRIS: I guess my question there, Minister, is why do you we have to curtail rooftop solar, why couldn't they curtail some of the solar farms and the renewable energy farms which are causing so much discontent in regional communities? I guess I'm trying to get to the bottom of why is it different to have the solar farm and the wind farm as opposed to having it on your roof; what's the difference there?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, there's a couple of key points, and firstly, let me just gently push back on your premise; yes, of course, whenever you are investing in heavily renewables across the country, you're going to get a range of views, but you know, all the evidence shows that there's strong support for renewables, not only in the cities and regions as well.

SARAH MORRIS: We've spoken to a lot of people in the regions, and that is not the case. There are a lot of people –

CHRIS BOWEN: Well – 

SARAH MORRIS: – who are extremely upset about the way –

CHRIS BOWEN: I didn't say –

SARAH MORRIS: – renewables are being rolled out.

CHRIS BOWEN: Sarah, if I could just finish the sentence. I didn't say it was unanimous or uncontroversial, but there's strong support for renewables. But yes, we need to do better across the board on community benefit and consultation; we've made lots of key changes there, because I want to see regions and communities benefit from renewable investment which is occurring there, but I don't accept that it's a unanimous view in the regions about renewable energy.

SARAH MORRIS: It's not unanimous, but we have to say there is a lot of problems with it.

CHRIS BOWEN: There's controversy and different views, but you know, let's not accept the premise that's put by the National Party and others that people in the city love renewables and people in the regions hate it. As someone who spends a lot of time in the regions, Sarah, it's not true. But to your point, can I just –

SARAH MORRIS: I also spend a lot of times in the regions –

CHRIS BOWEN: I know.

SARAH MORRIS: – and I'm getting look, they're not necessarily against renewable energy, they're probably more against the way it's being rolled out.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, we might be closer than you think because there has needed to be improvements in the way that communities are consulted and communities receive benefits, and we're making those changes.

Now in relation to rooftop solar, because it is such a big source of energy in Australia, as I said, Australia is the world leader on renewable energy, particularly on our roofs, because it is such a big source, and an increasing source, the obvious place that would need to be curtailed is rooftop solar.

As I said it happens rarely now; it would happen 67 percent of the time. If there was a heavy nuclear presence, it would be shutting down a source of income for Australians, shutting down an investment which has been reducing emissions and would be a backward step for Australia.

SARAH MORRIS: Okay. Going forward then, I guess, if we look – we're going to have these renewables, how is our renewable rollout tracking?

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, we've made good progress, and I'm pleased but not yet satisfied. If you look at the latest investment figures for the last few quarters, we're back on track for 82 percent renewables. That's a good thing. Yes, there's been international challenges to renewable investment and headwinds, but we've been tackling those. If you look at our Capacity Investment Scheme we've been massively oversubscribed, i.e., when we call for say, six gigawatts of investment, we get up to 40 gigawatts bidding in. That shows me and shows Australians the pipeline of investment is strong, renewable investors needed a government to provide certainty and a welcoming policy environment for renewables, and they've responded in kind.

Alternatively, if that is removed, if there's a government not providing that certainty, creating sovereign risk and saying to renewable investors, "We don't really want your investment here", that investment has plenty of other places to go around the world.

SARAH MORRIS: We are hearing obviously about a number of projects that are pulling out. Is there anything we can do to, I guess, allay the fears of the renewable energy industry that this might not be a country worth investing in?

CHRIS BOWEN: Oh, look, again, we are in the middle of a massive economic transformation. You're going to see projects proceed, and you're going to see some projects pull back, you're going to see some projects slow down and some projects go faster, and we're seeing all of that, all of that.

I mean, as I said, we've had more renewable energy added to our grid last year, in 2024, than any year in Australian history. That shows me that we're on the right track. Yes, there's more to do, and we are now a key investment market for renewable energy. That wasn't the case three years ago.

Now because of the certainty provided by government policies, because of the welcoming policy environment that's been created by the Albanese Government's policies, we are back as one of the world's key investable markets for renewable energy.

Yes, of course, as I said, there's going to be the odd setback, the odd slowdown, but the trajectory with more renewable energy added, capacity added to our grid last year than any year in Australian history tells me, on the right track, more to do.

SARAH MORRIS: Just on another issue today, of course we've been talking a lot about the trade war that looks like it's emerging between Australia's close allies, the United States, Canada and China. How are we going to deal with this, and are we worried at all about the backlash that Australia may feel from that trade war that's going on, and are we worried we might be next in line?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, of course our foreign and our trade policy will always be based on our interests and our values. Now what we've done is engaged constructively. As figures the Treasurer put out last year show, the biggest impact on Australia would be, as you said, the sort of global impact rather than direct impact on Australia. But nevertheless, we will put our case very strongly to the new Trump Administration, as one of the United States' historic TLIs that our interests should be regarded there.

Now, we're yet to see any announcements which impact directly on Australia, but from the Prime Minister down, we will protect Australia's interests strongly and clearly, and we will do what's necessary in response.

We're also engaging, as the Trade Minister has said on the front page of the newspapers this morning, he will engage very strongly with the incoming administration, as we all will do and have done, and you know, that's what's necessary to protect Australia's best interests.

SARAH MORRIS: Chris Bowen, thank you for your time this morning.

CHRIS BOWEN: Thanks Sarah. Nice to chat.