Interview with Steve Cannane, ABC Radio National

STEVE CANNANE: Well, the Opposition's been hedging its bets on nuclear energy ahead next election, promising to release more details on where the reactors will be located and how they'll work. Sounds like we may hear more information on that in the coming weeks.

But the Energy Minister says the next election will be a referendum on nuclear, with the latest research from the CSIRO showing nuclear would take 15 years to be built and cost a minimum of $16 billion.

Chris Bowen is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, and he joins us now. Minister, welcome back to the program.

CHRIS BOWEN: Good to be with you this morning, Steve.

STEVE CANNANE: You want the next election to be a referendum on nuclear. There's a few other important issues kicking around, like the cost of living and the state of economy, aren't there?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, of course there are, but there's also a very real difference between the two parties on energy policy and climate change policy, and it will be front and centre in the campaign. The nuclear fight is not one we sought, it's the Opposition which has chosen to go down this crazy and risky path, but it's one that we won't run away from.

Now the issue about nuclear, Steve, is that it is a delaying tactic for the necessary renewable roll out in our country. We are proceeding at pace. The Opposition actually is quite blunt and open about it – they don't support the renewable roll out. Their argument is it should be paused while they develop this fantasy of nuclear, and that will just see us relying on coal-fire for longer, which not only means higher emissions, but it also means a much less reliable system, because the coal fired power stations are ageing and increasingly unreliable.

STEVE CANNANE: The polling from the Lowy Institute yesterday showed that 61 per cent of Australians either somewhat or strongly support using nuclear power in Australia. Just 17 per cent strongly oppose it. If the next Federal Election is a referendum on nuclear, it sounds like you have a bit of work to do to convince those people.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, poll after poll also shows that Australians prefer renewable energy over nuclear by a very substantial margin. Wind and solar are much preferred over any other form of energy, particularly coal, particularly nuclear, and if the Opposition is feeling confident about this, release their policy.

I mean Mr Dutton said it would be released in a couple of weeks – that was 12 weeks ago. This has been a mess of policy development, and we're ready to have this debate. We can't have the debate properly until Mr Dutton releases the costings, the locations, the modelling and the full implications of his fantasy.

STEVE CANNANE: But you know how politics works. You went to the last Federal Election campaign with a pretty small target policy. It's reasonable, isn't it, that they roll their policy out relatively close to the election?

CHRIS BOWEN: We'd released our energy policy. The then Leader of the Opposition and now Prime Minister started releasing energy policy in his three budget replies, first with Rewiring the Nation, we'd also released very substantial policies and of course Powering Australia.

So Mr Dutton really, he's been talking about this for two years. I mean again, we didn't start this debate. The Opposition said they were going to go down the nuclear road two years ago. We've been quite patient, I think, but it's really time for Mr Dutton to be starting to release the policies, to be clear with the communities, which he believes should be hosting nuclear reactors, which he hasn't been to any of them in the two years.

I have spent a lot of time in regional Australia – he hasn't been anywhere near a coal fired power station, which are the places he believes should be hosting nuclear reactors; what's the cost? What's the timeline?

STEVE CANNANE: Okay.

CHRIS BOWEN: As I said, Steve, this is a delaying tactic for the necessary roll out of renewables. This is just a continuation of their 10 years of denial and delay. And every time one of their claims is tested and exposed to reality, it falls apart.

I mean Mr Dutton says we're the only G20 country without nuclear or committed to nuclear. It's just not true.

STEVE CANNANE: I just want to jump on that issue you raised about the communities where they might roll out nuclear power plants. You seem to want to make a big deal about that, as if modern nuclear power plants are somehow dangerous. Is this going to be a scare campaign to rival Labor's Mediscare campaign of 2016?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, Steve, I mean, let's be let's keep this realistic. I've just run through the risks of moving to nuclear power. The risk is that it substantially delays the roll out of renewables, that it makes our energy system much less reliable because we're relying on fewer and fewer ageing coal fired power stations, and that is the biggest risk to the reliability in the system. But if Mr –

STEVE CANNANE: And what about the safety issue? Are you going to try and make out as if they're not safe?

CHRIS BOWEN: I haven't well, when have I done that, Steve?

STEVE CANNANE: I'm asking whether you will do that.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, what I'm –

STEVE CANNANE: But you're stressing that they're going to be in certain communities.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yes.

STEVE CANNANE: And that almost suggests that well –

CHRIS BOWEN: Communities –

STEVE CANNANE: – those communities.

CHRIS BOWEN: No, no, what I suggest, Steve, is that communities deserve to know. That's what it suggests, that's what it suggests, and if you're disagreeing with that, you're entitled to do that, but I would put to you that if you want to be regarded as an alternative party of government, you should be being clear with the Australian people about your plans at this point in the election cycle.

STEVE CANNANE: Okay. Is there a danger you might demonise nuclear power as an option, because Australia may need small modular nuclear power reactors to supplement wind and solar down the track, mightn't they?

CHRIS BOWEN: Why would we, Steve, when no other country has them commercially operating in the world? They're a fantasy. Small modular reactors are the next big thing and they always have been, and they always will be – they don't survive contact with economic reality. They are very expensive to build, and again, the Opposition says, “ Oh, just because they're expensive to build doesn't mean that the energy that will come from them will be expensive to provide.”

I'm not sure how they are proposing that the people who've sunk billions of dollars into building these things will recoup their investment unless it's through high energy prices.

If they're proposing a government subsidy, again they should say so. I mean this is they have a puff of smoke and a thought bubble on energy policy. Every time we expose their claims to scrutiny, they do not survive contact with reality.

STEVE CANNANE: All right.

CHRIS BOWEN: That's why I'm saying, if they want a debate, release their policy.

STEVE CANNANE: Let's go to the broader renewables transition. One of the key components is transmission lines, of course. A new report out today shows the delays some of the major projects are facing, two of the most severe delays apparently, the VNI West Link between Victoria and New South Wales, a five–year delay on that and the Marinus Link between Tasmania and Victoria, a five–year delay on that.

Can you get to your renewable target by 2030 when several projects are still years behind?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, firstly, this report actually underlines the importance of proceeding with transmission, which we're doing. Again it's the Opposition which wants to stop transmission lines being built. Marinus is on time. We've got great progress with the Tasmanian and Victorian Governments. It's had – obviously every major infrastructure project around the world has the odd challenge, but we have worked very closely together, and we've overcome those challenges.

STEVE CANNANE: So you're saying that is on time, that link, because this report suggests there's a five–year delay.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, no, Marinus is in keeping with the timeline that the three governments announced, absolutely. But I make this point. There's a lot of myths out there about transmission. Again the Opposition says, “Oh, we need to build 28,000 kilometres by 2030.” That's a lie.

We have around 40,000 kilometres of transmission in Australia at the moment, and we need to add about 4,000 kilometres by 2030. 900 kilometres, or more than 900 kilometres are either built or substantially under construction of those 4,000, and that has to be done by 2030.

So this myth that we've got to build 28,000 by 2030 is just a myth, absolutely, but the transmission that we are building, getting on with is important to ensuring the reliability of our system.

STEVE CANNANE: The research does say that the average delays for transmission projects in Victoria is four years; two years in Queensland, one year in South Australia. What appears to be the problem here?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, again, I mean I'll look at the report when I receive it, but what I do know is that the transmission that we are building, of course, there's the odd challenge and the odd delay, absolutely; no question about that.

But the transmission that we are building, the 900 kilometres that are either built or substantially complete out of the 4,000 that need to be built by 2030 are important to the transition underway. There is no transition without transmission. We know that.

We know that the regulatory regime was not fit for purpose, hence we reformed it, we changed it, it's called a RIT-T it's a pretty silly name, but that's the regulatory regime for transmission approvals in Australia. We've made changes. We're asked The Australian Energy Market Corporation Commission to make changes, which they've done, to the way communities are consulted, to community benefit.

I commissioned Andrew Dyer, the former Energy Infrastructure Commissioner to write a report on community consultation and community benefit. That's a good framework to build on going forward. We want to ensure that the communities which host this sort of infrastructure have real benefits from it. As I've said many times to the transmission companies themselves, I'm not talking about paying for the football clubs' jerseys as important as that is I’m talking about real benefits for communities

STEVE CANNANE: Okay. A quick couple of questions I want to ask you about the wage decision. The ACT, you wanted an interim increase of 4 per cent of female dominated industries. That decision has been deferred. Should that have been implemented by the Fair Work Commission to deal with gender inequality, do you think?

CHRIS BOWEN: Oh, look, I'm not here to second guess the commission. It's a welcome decision; a 3.75 per cent increase is welcomed, there's 2.6 million Australians who benefit from it, and we advocated for it, and that's a good thing, you know, we believe in increasing real wages, and it's a good thing that the minimum wage has been increased in this way.

Again I'm not here to say, well, they could have done this a bit better or this a bit differently. They are an independent commission whose work we respect and whose decision we welcome.

STEVE CANNANE: Wage restraint is not something impacting all Australians. It emerged in Senate Estimates yesterday that Services Australia was spending over $300,000 a year for a contractor who, among other duties, was writing speeches for NDIS Minister, Bill Shorten, despite the agency already having more than 180 people in their comms team. Is that fee a little excessive in the current climate?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, departments and agencies have a range of communications officials who contribute to ministerial speeches. They would be doing much more than that; they wouldn't just be contributing to ministerial speeches.

This was a process that was underway. There was an expression of interest and a recruitment process. It found that this was the necessary thing to do.

Again departments and agencies under governments of all persuasions, of course, have communications officials, who contribute. They don't work for ministers, to be clear, and ministers by and large aren't involved in those decisions about recruiting women, it's so handled at –

STEVE CANNANE: But do you think it's excessive?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, this was the process that the market delivered to deliver a communications specialist for a very important government agency which communicates with millions of people on a daily basis.

I mean the number of people who talk to Services Australia about their issues and need things explained to them it literally runs for millions of people, and speeches and communications from that agency, Services Australia, are pretty damn important in communicating with those people who have questions about how Australia's Social Security system works, and the impact on them.

STEVE CANNANE: Minister, we'll have to leave it there. Thanks for your time this morning.

CHRIS BOWEN: Pleasure, Steve, good on you.

STEVE CANNANE: Thank you. Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Chris Bowen, talking to us there.