Interview with Thomas Oriti, ABC News Radio

THOMAS ORITI: There’s a deadline rushing at them and negotiators at the UN climate summit are continuing their talks into the night in Egypt. But there’s been some criticism that the COP27 talks in the Red Sea resort of Sharm el Sheikh are behind the pace of previous meetings. Now Government Ministers have returned to take over negotiations before the scheduled close on Friday. Australia’s Climate Change Minister Chris Bowen is there. He’s now playing a key role in negotiations over how to fund climate financing for poor and vulnerable countries, and the Minister took a quick break from those talks today. Chris Bowen joined me from Sharm el Sheikh.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, look here at COP there’s, I guess, two parts of the process. There’s the outward-looking process where we’re promoting Australia as a renewable energy powerhouse with our [indistinct] and lots of bilateral meetings, and that’s all going well. There’s also the negotiations which are more so obviously closely involved. Every negotiation is hard. And I’m sure people think and they’ve got a right to think that every COP is a step forward, but we’re also ensuring that there’s no step backwards, that we’re not unwinding anything that was agreed at Glasgow either. These are full-on discussions. These are going into the night and they’ll continue to go for the next few days as well.

THOMAS ORITI: Okay. What are you trying not to unwind from Glasgow? I sense there’s not a whole lot of optimism there.

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, you know, there’s a whole bunch of conversations about different topics going on at the moment. We’re determined, of course, as many countries and all the countries we are working closely with, to ensure that the commitment to holding the world to as close to 1.5 degrees of warming as possible is maintained. That’s very, very important. We want to also ensure for the first time, if we can, that renewable energy is really a focus of the COP discussions. That’s going forward. I’ve been asked to chair, with my Indian Climate Change Minister colleague, the negotiations about climate financing. That’s very important. That will go through the night tonight. But the negotiations and discussions that we are chairing, that’s a big focus because the world needs to make more progress on climate financing for the developing world. So, these are the sorts of things that are being undertaken, but that’s pretty standard, Thomas, for a COP. You’ll remember similar sort of scenes last year at Glasgow with very intense negotiations, and that’s also the case this time.

THOMAS ORITI: And I’m interested in asking you about that because I know you are playing a key role in those negotiations now over how to fund climate financing for poor and vulnerable countries. Is Australia doing enough to support the developing world in this space? In the wake of the budget we heard from some environment groups are concerned that there wasn’t really what they perceived to be enough funding for the environment in the Budget, but fast forward to Australia’s national statement at COP27, I mean, I don’t recall about hearing about any new funding in that space either.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, in the budget, of course, we increased aid to the Pacific by $900 million and, of course, we’re implementing the election commitment that we took to the election of developing a climate financing facility for the Pacific. There’s two very substantial steps forward. In my national statement on behalf of Australia yesterday, I also took the opportunity to, quite frankly, call for our multilateral development banks to do more. I don’t mind saying I was specifically referring to the World Bank, which I do not think has been doing anywhere near enough on climate financing. The World Bank was set up for a different time but that doesn’t mean they can’t or shouldn’t step up to the current issues.

What I’ve been charged – what I’ve been asked by the COP President to take control of the negotiations of is the broader climate financing pace across the country. That’s obviously an honour for Australia that we’ve been asked to do that. That shows there’s confidence from the COP presidency in Australia’s ability and the new government’s role, and I must say in all the bilateral discussions I’ve had – and there have been many – with my ministerial counterparts and heads of government over the last few days from around the world, there’s a very warm recognition of the change of approach in Australia. And people say the two big changes from the last COP from Glasgow are the change of management in Australia and Brazil. The new Brazilian President hasn’t taken office yet, but he is having an impact. Obviously, his Government’s approach has changed and it’s Australia and Brazil who are the two new Governments that are making the biggest difference.

THOMAS ORITI: And no doubt, Minister, those talks are going on, but honestly, I mean, just from here, COP27 doesn’t seem to have the same momentum as Glasgow. I’ve heard some criticism the talks have been slow. One remark was “directionless”. There’s not that long to go. As you said, you’re going to be involved in negotiations into the night in Sharm el Sheikh. Are you confident of any meaningful change here?

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, I’m not going to start making predictions, Thomas. We’re working hard. Not just me but, you know, I spent today talking to the likes of John Kerry and Alok Sharma and James Shaw from New Zealand, coordinating, making sure that we’re working together with our Pacific Island Prime Ministers and Ministers who I’ve been meeting with today, making sure their voices are heard, which I have done, yes. There is a huge amount of work to do, yes. And you’ll recall the Glasgow summit also went into the night and there were last-minute discussions and questions about whether it would result in a positive outcome or not. But these discussions are still, even though we’re halfway through the second week, really only the very serious negotiations began yesterday. I was only asked by the COP President to take control of the climate financing negotiations yesterday afternoon. I’ve been dealing with it all day. We will be meeting all night tonight. This is, look, to be frank, a pretty standard process for a COP because these things don’t come easily.

THOMAS ORITI: What about the road ahead when it comes to hosting this event? You’ve got your eyes set on COP31 in 2026. Will it happen?

CHRIS BOWEN: That’s right. Again, I’m very grateful for the amount of support that’s been expressed to Australia here. Obviously, I’ve been talking to my ministerial counterparts about it. They recognise that Australia is back. I was just at a reception where the Minister, you know, speaking said it’s great to have Australia back at the climate table, and they’re reflecting that in their indications of support for Australia’s bid. I’m not going to speak on behalf of other countries. They can make their announcements when they’re ready. But in all of the discussions I’ve had, we’re getting very, very warm support for our bid.

THOMAS ORITI: Just while we have you, Chris Bowen, China – Anthony Albanese has met with Xi Jinping on the sidelines of the G20. We had Malcolm Turnbull on the show yesterday expressing his optimism as well. In your view, was this a turning point or was it a cordial meaning and not much more? We’re not hearing all that much in terms of meaningful change at the moment.

CHRIS BOWEN: I think it was an important meeting. Time will tell how the relationship develops from here. But Thomas, there’s no relationship no matter how difficult it might be or what agreements and might be there or what differences of values and approach might exist; there’s no relationship where dialogue doesn’t help. That’s true of international relations. It’s true of personal relations. If you understand where each other is coming from and comparing notes and talking about different objectives and trying to understand each other, you’re better off. And that’s what Anthony Albanese has done as Prime Minister. I think it’s a good step forward. I think it’s the appropriate thing for Australia to do, to have dialogue with what is obviously one of the world’s most significant powers, our largest trading partner and a key player in all these discussions, and including the discussions I’m involved in. So, of course, it is a good thing and, of course, it’s a good step forward and Anthony showed very significant leadership in doing so.

THOMAS ORITI: Challenges ahead though, right? I mean, how does Australia walk that fine line between diplomatic relations with Beijing and maintaining its stance on China’s territorial ambitions, its human rights record? Malcolm Turnbull yesterday, he’s criticised Scott Morrison before, but even he said that China’s reaction to calls for a probe into COVID was bizarre and just that seemed to tip Beijing off the edge here. It didn’t seem to take all that much, one could argue.

CHRIS BOWEN: Thomas, the way you navigate that is to stand firm in your values, to stand firm in Australia’s best interests. They’re the two things which guide our foreign policy, our values and our interests, but not to engage in a domestic political debate with a megaphone and sort of beat up on another country to try to get domestic political points, which has been tried before in Australia in relation to China. That’s not the way to do it. There are times, of course, when you need to make strong public statements about other countries and differences that you have. There’s times when that is appropriate and necessary. There’s other times when dialogue is the best way forward. Obviously, a dialogue is always the starting point, and that’s what the Prime Minister has instigated in his important meeting with the President of China.

THOMAS ORITI: Chris Bowen, it’s a pleasure. Thank you very much for joining us.

CHRIS BOWEN: Great. I’ll get back to the negotiations. Thanks, Thomas.