Interview with Tom McIlroy, The Guardian Australian Politics podcast

TOM MCILROY: Hi, I'm Tom McIlroy, Political Editor at Guardian Australia on the lands of the Ngunnawal and Ngambri people in Canberra. My guest today is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Chris Bowen. He joins me on the phone and talks about what was a heady week in Federal Parliament as Labor prosecutes the case for the renewable energy transition and introduces free solar power for some homeowners. At the same time, the Coalition is inching closer to dumping their support for net zero by 2050.

This week, the British Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, said international consensus on climate change is gone. Bowen concedes it'll be a tough fight to cut global emissions, but insists Labor has the metal to get the job done.

[Excerpt]

CHRIS BOWEN: There'll be setbacks. There'll be headwinds. There'll be tailwinds as well. The cost of batteries is coming down. The cost of solar has collapsed. The cost of green hydrogen, it’s a bit more bit more challenging than it looked two or three years ago. These are swings and roundabouts that will occur. We'll just deal with them as they come.

[End of excerpt]

TOM MCILROY: An author of four books, Bowen tells us his favourite titles on our political history. This is the Australian Politics Podcast. Chris Bowen, welcome to the podcast.

CHRIS BOWEN: Thanks, Tom. Good to be with you.

TOM MCILROY: It's great to have you after a pretty busy week here in Canberra.

CHRIS BOWEN: [Laughs] A torrid sitting fortnight, as they say.

TOM MCILROY: Yeah, I think there might have been 40 divisions in the House yesterday alone.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, second highest in the history of Federation - there's a fun fact for our listeners. Second most divisions, most votes all for the, or almost all for the environmental approvals legislation, which is now through the House. And now we have to navigate through the Senate.

TOM MCILROY: Wow. Well, your head must be spinning, but thank you for answering some questions for our listeners. Let me start with some comments from Keir Starmer, the British Prime Minister, at the COP Summit in Brazil. He said that the consensus on climate change, the international will to act that came from the Paris Agreement 10 years ago, is gone and that leaders committed to action on climate change are going to have to work harder to get the world to where we need to be. I'd love your response to those comments.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I think they’re fair comments. Yes, it's a contested space, but that makes supporting action in keeping with the science more important, not less important. It makes continued action by governments and industry who get it that this is a scientific and environmental imperative, but also excellent economics even more important.

That's certainly our approach in Australia. We work pretty closely with the Starmer Administration and my counterpart, Ed Miliband, he and I are close collaborators. And that's a fair comment that, yes, there's plenty of debate and contestation around. But one thing hasn't changed since the Paris Accord, science, which tells us that net zero by 2050 is the bare minimum necessary to keep the world as close as possible to 1.5 degrees warming which we have so much at stake.

TOM MCILROY: How much of a difference does the change in the United States under Donald Trump make? How much harder does that make the job for you and for people like Keir Starmer and others who are still committed to this task?

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, I mean, obviously, it's best of course that we have governments working as closely together as possible. But in terms of the United States, I guess you could look at it a couple of ways. Firstly, yes, the Trump Administration has a different approach to the Biden Administration, and that’s just a given statement of fact.

The United States are still getting on with it. When I say states, I mean big economies - California is bigger than Australia, they're still getting on with it. And other states, I visited Michigan a little while ago, they're getting on with it, et cetera, et cetera. And United States industry still, the vast majority of investment in new energy in the United States is renewables. That hasn't changed because the economics haven't changed. Internationally, countries like Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom, Germany, France, Korea now are increasingly all pretty aligned and taking very similar approaches. So, we just take the challenges and the opportunities. They repeat and they'll continue to be between now and 2030 and 2035 and 2050. It's not going to be a linear line and smooth-sailing, but the imperative is strong if not stronger than ever.

TOM MCILROY: Let me ask you about the events of the week. We started with an interesting announcement from you and from the Government about the Solar Sharer scheme. This is three hours of free renewable energy for account holders who are on the default market offer and who are in New South Wales, South Australia, and parts of Queensland. Tell me how this works. And really, is there a catch here? It seems like a positive development.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, we've been working on this for some time, thinking it through, and it is very positive. And it's a way of opening up the opportunities of renewable energy to more people, people who don't currently have solar panels or a battery, or indeed, even people who do. Obviously, you can still participate in a scheme, but just making it easier for people.

We can do this because we've got 4.2 million houses with solar panels on their roofs, and that drives negative prices in the middle of the day a lot of the time. So, with due respect, energy companies aren't paying for that energy and I don't think consumers should therefore pay their energy companies. So, we will require it as an offer to be made, not compulsory to take it up. Some energy companies already do this, to their credit. But because we're going to regulate it now, it means consumers can have that little bit more confidence that they're not being ripped off somewhere else in a deal that looks good that maybe isn't so good. The regulator will need to approve every plan, so that's a good thing.

TOM MCILROY: What about people in the other states? Is it possible this kind of scheme will be rolled out nationally?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, I'd like to. The default market offer only applies in those states, that's the way to previous government sort of designed it in consultation with those states. Now, we can start it in those states from 1 July next year, 2026, and then I'll have discussions with the other states about rolling it out. They're pretty sympathetic and supportive by and large, but there are some issues that we need to work through. It's a good offer, and I hope we can make it available to more Australians.

TOM MCILROY: I think COP31 and the hosting rights will be something that's on your mind almost every hour of the day, Chris Bowen. Tell us where things stand and tell me how come you're not in Brazil right now for COP30.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, where things stand is that the situation remains the same. Australia's support is overwhelming in our group and around the world to host COP31, that's great. It's not a matter of votes. Look, if it was just a matter of votes we would have won some time ago, but that's not how the COP process works. The COP process works in my view, unfortunately, that once you've got the votes you then got to get the agreement of the country that, effectively, has just - not won the rights, which means we need agreement from Turkiye. So, you know, we can have support from right around the world, that doesn't really make much difference - we've got to get that agreement with Turkiye.

That's what we've been working on, I'm not going to go into details about it in this call. But I've been talking to my counterpart; Penny Wong’s been talking to hers; Anthony Albanese has had correspondence with his, and that's what we're really working on. This is a great opportunity for the country, for our region, for the Pacific on so many levels. It's been a long time since a COP was held in the Southern Hemisphere and never been held in the Pacific, and this is a really good opportunity.

The reason I'm not at COP31 the moment is because- sorry, COP30 at the moment, is because COP is a long thing. This is not my first rodeo, I've got some experience now on this. And the ministerial negotiations start in the second week, they will drag through the night and almost certainly past the finishing day. This is a marathon, not a sprint. My Turkish counterpart is not in Brazil either. Josh Wilson is representing Australia in the first part, and I will represent Australia when the negotiations actually start in the second week.

As I said, not my first rodeo, it's my fourth COP. I've learned a thing or two along the way. I've actually been asked by the Brazilian presidency to co-chair some of the negotiations on technology, which I'm happy to do, but all that will happen in the second week.

TOM MCILROY: And as the clock ticks down to the end of this year's COP, do you expect other countries to, perhaps, gently push Turkiye to make some sort of deal with Australia to resolve the question of hosting rights for next year?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah. Certainly the world wants to see it resolved as we do, it needs to be resolved - it will be resolved at this COP one way or another. And of course, if Turkiye and Australia can't reach agreement under the COP rules, it defaults to the host city of the UNFCCC, which is Bonn in Germany. That'd be unfortunate. I'd be very disappointed if that was the result. And that'd be a terrible result for the Pacific who needs a voice in these negotiations, in the COP negotiation. That's why our Pacific Island friends are so keen for Australia to be COP President. We can only work in the rules and the circumstances which the COP and UNFCCC rules prescribe, and that's what we're doing to the best of our ability.

TOM MCILROY: The Financial Review reported this week that the cost for an Adelaide COP next year could billion dollars. It sounds like an expensive proposition.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, these things, whether it's your G20 or an APEC or any other international forum, and I use G20 and APEC because they were hosted by previous Liberal governments with the full-throated support of the Labor opposition of the day, they do cost some money, but there's also immediate economic benefit for the country, obviously, with all the people coming in. But there's also a long-term geostrategic benefit for our region.

Climate for the Pacific Islands is the top one, two, three, four, five issues. And then after that, it's daylight. Why? Because the existence of some of their countries depends on it, the small low-lying atoll states in particular. So, geopolitically it's very important and the playoff for our country is the world's largest trades fair. If we are serious about renewable energy and our role in the energy system, a good, sensible, middle-of-the-road, economically literate government, which clearly the Liberal Party would not be, would welcome the chance to host a COP.

TOM MCILROY: You're a determined person, there's no question. Are you optimistic you can get this done?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, determined is the best way of putting it, rather than optimistic. But, you know, again, within the constraints that we're working under, we'll know soon enough, Tom. I understand the interest, everyone's asking about it but, you know, we will leave nothing on the table to try and get a great result for our country and our region.

TOM MCILROY: Let's turn to the Opposition. They're tearing themselves apart this week again on net zero. You said earlier in our discussion that a net zero commitment from countries like Australia is the bare minimum for stopping the worst of climate change around the world. What do you make of the politics on the other side? Is it possible that the Coalition walking away from net zero could be bad for Australia's renewable transition more broadly?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, it's Groundhog Day, isn't it? I mean, you know, for 25 years now we've been watching the conservatives contort themselves on this issue, on basic science. It's really sad, frankly. As an Australian, I wish it wasn't the case. As an Australian, I wish the alternative government of Australia was much more persuaded by 97 per cent of the world's scientists, by the economics, and had a sensible approach. Maybe not an approach I agreed with in every element, but one you could sit down and talk through and work with. I would love that as the minister, to have a shadow minister where you could do that. I don't have that. I don't see any prospect of having that any time soon.

As a Labor politician, okay, fine. You know, I think it makes the Liberal Party completely out of touch with mainstream Australia. That's their electoral strategy. Okay, away you go, guys. You know, knock yourselves out. We'll see at the next election, just as we saw at the last election. So, the Labor politician, obviously the other side tearing itself apart is not something I lament. But as an Australian it is, because I think it is an inferior result for the country to have the alternative government just engaged in dinosaur behaviour like they're doing.

TOM MCILROY: Is there any risk that voters are starting to sour on the concept of net zero? Is it possible that there's a shift in the vibe around the politics of the renewable transition and cutting emissions?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, show me some evidence for that, Tom. I mean, apart from Sky after Dark, show me where mainstream views reflect that? Look, I think it's remarkable that support for climate action holds up so well in the face of such relentless disinformation. You know, opinion page after opinion page of disinformation from the usual suspects. They must get bored writing climate denial op-eds, but apparently they don't because they just keep doing it. But it's just relentless.

But yet, all the evidence shows strong support for climate action, strong support for net zero. Of course, we have to be vigilant. And of course, you know, deniers or delayers will use things like pressure on energy prices to tell lies that it's the fault of renewables, et cetera. We've got to keep- you may or may not follow me on social media, I'm constantly batting away at disinformation. We've got to keep vigilant about that.

But at the last election, Peter Dutton said he wanted a referendum on climate change and energy. We were okay with that and the result speaks for itself. And Mr. Dutton, you know, and I wish him well, but he's no longer around. And the Australian people told us to get on with it and they are getting on with it, you know - 114,000 batteries today installed since 1 July. They're working with their Government and getting on with the task.

TOM MCILROY: My sense was you were enjoying it in Parliament this week, relishing the opportunity to test the Opposition on some of their claims and push back on some of the evidence that they were citing.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, we use the word evidence lightly. I mean, they've just engaged - and David Littleproud was doubling down yesterday. He's been saying net zero costs $9 trillion. It was always a fraudulent statement. I say those words advisedly. It is a dishonest, fraudulent statement. He used the Net Zero Australia report dishonestly to claim $9 trillion. Net Zero Australia came out and said that is a misrepresentation of our work, and he just shrugged his shoulders.

You know, they’ve been quoting the Rainforest Reserves work. Rainforest Reserves is an anti-renewables group which invented academic citations and invented reports and misquoted others, and had the academics come out and say that is an abuse, that’s not what we said. David Littleproud merrily quotes them. I mean, and then he cites the Page report, which is the country party’s think tank. They said, oh, we’ve got independent analysis. And you look at that independent analysis – it was paid for by Coal Australia. It’s not independent. I mean, this is fundamentally, intellectually dishonest. And yes, I did call it out in Parliament yesterday. You could observe I might have enjoyed myself. I wish I didn’t have to do this. I wish I didn’t have to call out this disinformation. But when there’s a stoush on, I won’t walk away from it. I will be in the stoush and I will call it out.

TOM MCLLROY: Fair enough. Let me ask you about the advice to the government. Achieving the government's 2035 emissions targets is not going to be easy. The Climate Change Authority advice says that it will require some of these things and more – the doubling of the decarbonisation rate, a six-fold increase in battery storage in Australia, quadrupling of wind capacity, tripling of solar, and for all of the new car sales between now and 2035, half of them to be electric vehicles. This is a huge thing, as well as ceasing logging in old growth forests. Can Labor achieve it? Is it going to be too difficult?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, let me say a couple of things, Tom. Firstly, the Climate Change Authority gave the government one piece of advice, 62 to 70. There was only one piece of advice. Yes, they had various examples of the sorts of things that could be a pathway to get there, but that wasn't their advice. That was in their report. Their advice to government was to go to 62 to 70. That's advice we accepted. But I think what you're pointing to, though, does underline, you might have heard me say many times, it's ambitious and achievable, but it underlines the ambitious element. And for those who came out when we announced the targets, oh, the cop-out's not good enough, this is low-balling it – I mean, guys, get with the program. Look at what is going to be required to get this done. This is ambitious. And for people who say it should be higher, show me how you do it. This is going to be a big lift. It is not inevitable that we will get to 62 to 70. It will not be straightforward. It is achievable. It can be done. We're doing better than you might think reading some newspapers. We just reached 50 per cent renewables in the national grid in October. That's no small thing, Tom. It's not been easy to get there, and we're more than halfway there to 82. That's only one month, you know, it'll go up and down, but it's the first time it's happened in Australian history. We've got renewable records tumbling at a record rate. Instantaneous renewable penetration record is being broken almost weekly. The monthly and quarterly figures are being broken each reporting period. So we're making progress. A lot more to do. There'll be setbacks. There'll be headwinds. There'll be tailwinds as well – the cost of batteries is coming down, the cost of solar has collapsed, the cost of green hydrogen is a bit more challenging than it looked two or three years ago. These are swings and roundabouts that will occur, and we’ll just deal with them as they come.

TOM MCLLROY: My sense is that it's a reorientation of the whole economy. Is this the opportunity of Labor's majority in the House and the dysfunction on the other side, spend the political capital, get this job done in the next decade?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it is a massive economic recalibration. I've said that many times. The Treasurer has said it. Jim and I, always talking with each other about managing these issues. We're on the same page. This is an economic portfolio. It [indistinct] an environmental portfolio and a foreign affairs portfolio. That's why I love it so much, you know? It is the main game, and it is an opportunity as well as a challenge for the government, and one we've embraced. It was no small part of our program in the election. And the Opposition's program, there was a clear choice. Australians made the choice. I'm not quite sure I said in the same sort of frame as you put about political capital. Australian people told us to get on with it. That's what we're doing.

TOM MCLLROY: All right, Chris Bowen, it's been a busy week and you've got a couple of busy weeks ahead before the end of the parliamentary year. Cast forward to your summer holidays. You're a big reader and an author of four books, including a great history of the Treasurers of Australia, which I recommend to our listeners. Tell me, what's on your reading list? Tell me one of your best books for 2025?

CHRIS BOWEN: Oh, that's very kind of you, Tom. Well, I haven't really thought through my summer shifts as yet. I haven't really had five minutes to think about that. I will, no doubt. You're right. Get through lots of books. I'm always reading two books at a time. I'm listening to one and reading one. At the moment, I'm reading, just finished actually last night, Ian McEwan's latest novel, which is a bit of climate fiction actually, set 100 years in the future. I won't spoil it, but I recommend it. It's not just about that, there's a whole other storyline as well, but it's good. And I'm also reading Troy Bramston's biography of Gough Whitlam, which I also recommend. I’m finding it good. Lots of stuff for us political nerds including the numbers and the pre-selection in 1952 for Werriwa, for example. So there's lots of that sort of detail there. So I'll be reading a combination of fiction and non-fiction. I read a lot of climate non-fiction. I break it up with some history and some fiction as well.

TOM MCLLROY: I'm looking forward to reading Troy Bramston's book over the summer. Tell me, is there a seminal book about Australian politics or something that you really recommend to people?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, that's an interesting question. I'll tell you one book. It's a few years old now and it might not automatically appeal to listeners, but I do recommend it. Tiberius with a Telephone, the biography of Billy McMahon.

TOM MCLLROY: Oh, it's a cracker. Patrick Mullins. Fantastic book.

CHRIS BOWEN: Patrick Mullins. It's a cracker of a book. It's a long book, you know? Belt yourself in, you won't read it in a week, but it's more than a biography of McMahon. It's a political history of Australia in the ‘40s, ‘50s, ‘60s and ‘70s, and a really good one. So yeah, I'd recommend that.

TOM MCLLROY: I agree. I think it's one of the best books written about Australian politics that I've ever read.

CHRIS BOWEN: Yes, I would put it right up there too. Yes.

TOM MCLLROY: Well, Chris Bowen, thanks for making some time for us on the podcast. Wishing you the best of luck for the next couple of weeks. We'll see you back in Canberra for the final sitting week, and look forward to talking more about climate action. That was Chris Bowen, the Minister for Climate Change and Energy.