Press conference with SA Minister for Energy, Tom Koutsantonis and Matt Burnell, Member for Spence at 5B Solar, Adelaide

MATT BURNELL: Welcome everyone. My name's Matt Burnell, I'm the Federal Member for Spence. It is fantastic to be out here in the northern suburbs today with Minister Chris Bowen, along with Minister Koutsantonis and the local State representative, Zoe Bettison, and also a Minister in her own right.

But the northern suburbs is synonymous for manufacturing, and what this facility here does is goes to the heart of ensuring that we see more things built here in Australia. That's at the heart of our Budget here this year, and really creating opportunity for young people to come into the advanced manufacturing space. 

It's something I'm extremely proud of, it's something that our Government took the election in 2022, and we are continuing to deliver on. And on that note, I want to hand over to Minister Chris Bowen to say a few words.

CHRIS BOWEN: Thanks very much, Matt. Well, the centrepiece of the Federal Budget was a Future Made in Australia, and very much that means a future made in Adelaide.

Here in Adelaide, at 5B we see a company which has done the hard yards, which has been innovative, which has employed many South Australians, including some who left Holden, and has a great future with the right government support, with the right government framework, and that's what our Solar Sunshot policy announced just before the Budget and funded in the Budget does.

It takes that Australian technology, the Australian innovation, the Australian know-how, the Australian skills and let's it complete with the Inflation Reduction Act in the United States and government supports elsewhere. Not on wages, we're not in a race to the bottom on wages, we're in a race to the top on skills and innovation.

Later on, I'll be going to Tindo's also in Adelaide, another great South Australian company. All these companies, 5B and Tindo will be able to participate in our Solar Sunshot program, and without that support, I fear that the future for solar manufacturing, solar related manufacturing in Australia was bleak; with that support, we all agree that it is very bright indeed.

And we need to roll out, not only solar panels, but we need to roll them out fast, particularly Australia leads the world in rooftop solar, but our mining and off grid industry really needs to roll out renewable energy to meet their targets and our targets, and the technology here at 5B will be key. It's one of the fastest roll out of solar panels you can see anywhere in the world, and we want to see that made in Australia. Australia can be a renewable energy superpower.

That doesn't mean just making renewable energy in Australia, it means making the things that make renewable energy in Australia. Solar Sunshot, together with the other programs, Battery Breakthrough and Hydrogen Headstart will be very much seeing South Australia, I'm sure at the centre, the Koutsantonis administration here, under Premier Malinauskas is leading the world in many ways in hydrogen, green hydrogen. We want to partner with them, as we have done in the past, and I know that there is much that we can and do, will do together.

So with Tom and Peter leading in relation to green hydrogen, they really deserve the support of their Federal Government, and we're doing that through the Hydrogen Hub, but we'll also work with them to see what can be done under Hydrogen Headstart into the future as well.

Before I hand over to Tom, I'll just say a few words about the Electricity Statement of Opportunities released today.

Now these statements are designed to tell the private sector where there are gaps and where governments can work with private sector to see investment, and that is what they're designed for, and that's what they do. And just as in – through 2018 and 19 and 20, they foresaw gaps in the absence of public sector action. Today's also provides that guidance.

Now it's important to note that the statement of opportunities released which shows government policies being implemented, most particularly the Capacity Investment Scheme, shows those reliability gaps being dealt with.

The Capacity Investment Scheme is vital to our energy future. I've been delighted to partner with Tom and with Lily D'Ambrosio in Victoria on the pilot. The 600-megawatt pilot, which has been massively oversubscribed; we've received 20 gigawatts of applications for those 600 megawatts, and we'll be saying more about who's won the pilot auction later in the year.

But it is vital to go forward, and what the Statement of Opportunities today tells us, reminds us, as if we needed reminding, is that we need more investment in renewable energy, not less. We need to go faster, not slower. That's exactly what the Government's doing.

I'll tell you what the worst response to this would be: to slow down, to pause renewable energy, to pause transmission and to wait for a fantasy like nuclear energy to come forward. That would be the worst response. That would be a recipe for reliability disaster. Saying that we're going to slow down renewables, we're going to rely more on coal as it ages, as the coal fired power stations age and become even more unreliable, that would be a recipe for reliability risk, and Mr Dutton will have a lot of explaining to do when he eventually gets around to announcing his nuclear policy.

He promised it in a couple of weeks, 10 weeks ago. A couple, we might allow a little leeway, it might be three or four, it's not 10. He promised it before the Budget. The Budget's been and gone now. This is time now for Mr Dutton to come forward on where will the nuclear sites be; where in South Australia will they be; where else in the country will they be; what the costs and what is the reliability risk, and we will await Mr Dutton's policy with keen interest. I'm going to hand over to Tom, and then we'll take questions.

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: Thank you, Chris, Zoe and Matt. South Australia's led the nation when it comes to renewable energy, but we've done it by and large on our own; we've never had a partner. We've always sort of been fighting with Canberra about rolling out renewable energy, it's a cheaper source of power and powers 75 per cent of all of our energy needs, and we've got a target to get to 100 per cent net renewables by 2027, and now we've got a partner. We've got someone who's actually supporting us to get there, to lower power prices and improve reliability and the sustainability of manufacturing in this country.

These solar panel technologies were invented in Australia. We lost that IP because governments weren't taking the transition seriously. We've finally got a government and a Minister who actually cares about renewable energy, cares about lowering prices, and cares about making sure we can lower our carbon emissions, whether it's decarbonising our steel manufacturing in the Upper Spencer Gulf, decarbonising copper smelting in the Upper Spencer Gulf, or lead smelting in the Upper Spencer Gulf, we're not fighting with someone, we've got someone who's going to partner with us.

More importantly, the workers here who work in manufacturing are actually seeing a future where we can actually manufacture the wind farms and the solar arrays that we're building to decarbonise our state and our country.

The programs that Chris and the Albanese Government are putting up are game changers to South Australia, absolute game changers. I mean just think of it, if we had not lost that IP on solar technology, how many jobs it would have created here in Australia.

Why has it taken so long for a Commonwealth Government to think about manufacturing renewable resources here in this country? It's taken the leadership of the Albanese Government to do that, and on behalf of South Australia, thank you very much for partnering with us.

In the north of our State, in our regional remote communities that are off-grid, solar panels like the ones that are made here at 5B will be rolled out in a partnership with South Australia where we're building a brand new $26 million off-grid facility to replace diesel generators for our regional Indigenous communities that are off-grid.

That's going to provide them with heating in winter and cooling in summer, making sure their refrigeration works, making sure that vaccinations can be kept up there and refrigerated, and the technology we have in place here means we can build these solar arrays in really remote areas quickly and fast, and get them out there without having to service them as often as we service other solar technology.

So this is really forward-thinking and great technology. As Chris said, the Statement of Opportunities released by AEMO today also shows how important it is for the State Government and governments to have a reserve. And I pose this question to the critics out there: where would be without the Commonwealth Government's Capacity Investment Scheme? Where would we be without the State Government's 200-megawatt generator that we are building in Whyalla?

I note that we've got a 30-megawatt shortfall in 26/27, and in a really hot summer, 300 megawatts of shortfall. I remind South Australians that the former Labor Government built 270 megawatts of gas-fired generation that was there to be standing on standby to meet those demands, and it was privatised by the previous government.

We've come back into office, and we're building a new generation again that will be renewable, and dispatchable through our green hydrogen project in Whyalla, and I fear we're going to go through these cycles over and over again. That's why the Capacity Investment Scheme is so important, to make sure we have that baseload of renewable, dispatchable renewable energy in place, and I really want to thank Chris for that, making sure that Australia's guaranteed 200 megawatts of that Capacity Investment Scheme here in South Australia as we compete for the remaining 200 megawatts of that with Victoria.

We're a connected State, we're inter-connected, and South Australia's going to do its part to make sure renewable energy can get to New South Wales and Victoria to help with their transition as well.

We'll take any questions you might have.

CHRIS BOWEN: Thanks, Tom. We agreed in advance that I'm going to take the easy questions and Tom's going to take the hard questions, and Matt's going to take the really hard questions.

JOURNALIST: Minister, can we start with you and what concerns you have about reliability risks associated, and that New South Wales and Victoria might face as soon as this summer raised in the AEMO report.

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, as I said, these AEMO reports are pointing out where potentially reliability gaps are is how the system's meant to work. These reports aren't done for fun, they have existed for several years. For years they have pointed to gaps at various places. Those gaps have been filled.

I mean we would have been in the middle of a major shortfall right now, if you look at the 2018 issue, for example. So it provides that guidance, and as Tom and I have both said, that's exactly why we're doing the Capacity Investment Scheme to underpin 32 gigawatts of new reliable energy across the grid.

Now, we saw warnings that last summer we would have blackouts. We did have work to do last summer, you know, it was a difficult period. The Opposition, Federal Opposition ran around saying blackouts are inevitable. Both Mr Dutton and Mr O'Brien said the lights are going off.

Well, they were wrong. We got through summer with no blackouts caused by lack of energy generation. Of course we saw some incidents where transmission powers had been knocked over in cyclones, well, any government's going to deal with those, but at no point did we have a shortage of electricity over this summer, and AEMO and the Federal Government and State Governments will be working together to make sure that remains the case.

JOURNALIST: Are you telling Australians there's no real risk of blackouts this summer?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I've always been very clear about – there are always in the system things you have to be prepared for, whether they be natural disasters. AEMO, to be clear, is not ruling out blackouts; AEMO is pointing out at various points across the NEM, across the National Energy Market, over the next 10 years, where some extra investment is required, that investment will come through.

JOURNALIST: Given the shortfalls in New South Wales, is there concern that – or would you believe the lights could go out in New South Wales?

CHRIS BOWEN: And again, the New South Wales Government and the Federal Government will be working very closely together, New South Wales will have more to say about their own plans on Eraring, that's no secret, they are managing the exit of their largest coal fired power station, that's quite appropriate.

But again, I just point out, people said that blackouts were inevitable last summer, there were none as a result of electricity shortfalls. Governments will be working to ensure that everything is done again in the future, and as I said, ESOOs for years – and I can run you through the quotes of every Electricity Statement of Opportunities, you know, 2017 onwards, which has said there's going to be reliability shortfalls at various points, but they get dealt with.

JOURNALIST: What is it that you need to do at this time to ensure –

CHRIS BOWEN: What we need to do is continue what we're doing; roll out the Capacity Investment Scheme. I mean the first auction will be starting literally within a short number of weeks, and then Tom and I and Lily will be announcing the results of the Victorian and South Australian auction in a couple of months.

JOURNALIST: Why are so many renewable and transition projects running behind schedule?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, that's not necessarily the case. There's one transmission project which is behind schedule at the moment, which is reflected in the Statement of Opportunities.

I will say this: it's very important to note the Statement of Opportunities today looks at the around 4.2 new gigawatts of energy generation and assumes, quite prudently and appropriately, that they all run late. That's what this report is based on. There's an assumption that there's delays in all of them.

Now there's no evidence of any delays at this point in many of them. You know, whether it's Kurri Kurri, know, which is on time, in relation to the latest projections, or many of the other renewable ones. AEMO is quite prudently building in a very conservative assumption that everything runs six months late, because when you have, you know, big projects, inevitably there are some delays. It doesn't mean they will happen; it means AEMO has prudently forecast what would happen in the event that every single one of them was six months late.

JOURNALIST: Do you think South Australia has mothballed its gas and diesel generators too early?

CHRIS BOWEN: No, I don't. I don't know if Tom wants to add, but, no, no, we are managing a transition, and inevitably there's going to be energy leaving and energy coming in.

We did inherit the situation where 4 gigawatts of dispatchable energy had left and only 1 gigawatt had come in. We're generating 32 gigawatts of new energy through the Capacity Investment Scheme.

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: I'll just say this: the previous government's plan of building an interconnector to New South Wales is always going to displace South Australian power. So we can't have the Opposition claiming we're mothballing gas fired generators, and the reason they're being mothballed is because of a policy that was directly subsidised by the previous government which we warned them about.

I want sovereign capability, I want more batteries in South Australia, remembering that the first Questar battery built in the world was here, and it was mocked by the Opposition as being nothing more than a tourist attraction or a big banana. People could get photographs taken in front of it. Now it's a template around the world, not just around the country.

So gas fired generators that are mothballed, these are relatively small, they are relatively inefficient, they're very, very expensive.

The one I'm most concerned about is Torrens Island, and you might remember when we first came to office we put in a $25 million scheme to keep some units at Torrens being open and operating until the interconnector is online, which is referred to in the ESOO which is showing that South Australia's in relatively healthy condition.

If we had had our 270 megawatts of gas fired turbines that we purchased after the Statewide blackout, South Australia would have a surplus of supply, we could help other jurisdictions with, but [indistinct] privatised by our opponents who are now complaining I think is a bit a bit rich.

I think if I were the Opposition I would come up with their own energy policy, and I would quite frankly apologise to the people of South Australia for their privatisation agenda.

JOURNALIST: What more can the Federal Government do to address some of those delays on projects like Project EnergyConnect?

CHRIS BOWEN: I mean when you have transmission, where you're dealing with a roll out of transmission, where you're building around 4 – a bit over 4,000 kilometres between now and 2030, not the 28,000 kilometres you've heard Peter Dutton invent, 4,000 kilometres between now and 2030, of which around 900 are under construction as we speak, you're going to get delays as a result of supply chain issues, you're going to have social licence issues to manage. They're really the two big moving parts, and then of course labour force issues when you're dealing with a big construction project.

Now, on social licence, we've engaged with the Dyer Review, I've commissioned the Dyer Review, I've received the Dyer Review, accepted in principle the recommendations of the Dyer Review, and said that that's something to work on.

But social licence isn't what's dealt with, what's caused the big delay, that's more in relation to this pretty understandable roll out of big infrastructure projects where there's a lot of construction right around the world.

Now, we'll work with the companies where necessary, but what we've got to do is – that's what I'm saying the ESOO is designed to do, is to point out, this is running late, so what we need is some more investment to fill that reliability gap, and that's exactly what government policy – as the ESOO itself says, you've got the central scenario, you've got the Government policy scenario. The Government policy scenario, that's not new policy, that's policy the Federal Government's already announced, and State Governments have already announced.

If those policies are implemented, the reliability gaps are helped.

JOURNALIST: Specifically though for that interconnector, which as highlighted is running late, is the ramifications for New South Wales significantly greater for that State than it is here for here in SA?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, look, it's an interconnector which is designed to assist both States at various points.  And I have no doubt that New South Wales will take that into consideration in their plans, which it’s no secret there, they are close to [indistinct].

JOURNALIST: You've mentioned that Eraring, the power plant in New South Wales. Is it evident that the lights need to stay on at that facility?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, it's no secret the New South Wales Government's in discussion with Origin about that. As I said, sometimes you'll have coal fired power station closures brought forward, sometimes they'll be delayed. That says governments work together with AEMO to manage a very complicated and big, and absolutely vital and necessary and inevitable transition, and the New South Wales will have more to say about that.

JOURNALIST: Should it extend Eraring till after?

CHRIS BOWEN: My statement on Eraring is the same as Minister Penny Sharpe's. I want to see Eraring open not a day longer than it needs to be, not a day earlier than it should.

JOURNALIST: [Indistinct]. Can you confirm [indistinct] power plant and the delay that's flagged in the AEMO report – 2025 was the initial completion date [indistinct] is it, as the Minister said, just cautionary?

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: Yes, AEMO put in that cautionary aspect of it. They add more time for commissioning than is necessary, they always assume a delay. The advice I have is that General Electric [indistinct] was being manufactured, we'll have delivery here in 2025. I'm confident we can beat those timelines.

JOURNALIST: What's changed from August last year to this update then on the project, 'cause even in August last year it was still banking on end of ‘25?

CHRIS BOWEN: That's an assumption. As that project comes closer to reality and as the system relies on it more, because it will be coming closely with reality, AEMO assumes a six-month delay, just in case.

Now, as Tom has just said, he has no advice that that project is running late. I have no advice that Kurri Kurri is running late, on the contrary, the very strong advice to me from Snowy Hydro is that Kurri Kurri is on time, and that there's no reason for concern.

But it's prudent to think through, because delays can occur even at the last minute, we've seen that with some private sector, Tallawarra Power Station was completed just earlier this year in New South Wales, so delays emerged at the last minute in commissioning and things like that.

No evidence that any of those delays will happen, but AEMO is simply thinking through what would the case be so that ministers and the private sector's not blindsided if there are delays.

JOURNALIST: The 30 megawatts or so that was – this might be a question for our State Minister. Just about the 35 megawatts as a shortfall in SA come 26/27, given we are several years out, is that manageable?

CHRIS BOWEN: Yes, yes, it is, particularly with the Capacity Investment Scheme underpinning at least 200 megawatts for South Australia, at least 200 megawatts, quite possibly more.

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: So, it will be a [indistinct] auction, if it's really tight, and I am completely confident that we can meet that 35-megawatt gap.

But I just point out again, if we had our 270-megawatt backup generators, there would be no auction, we would have provided that power, and the consumer wouldn't be paying extra for it.

JOURNALIST: [Indistinct] guarantee South Australians that there won't be blackouts here over summer or [indistinct]?

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: I would – I can't speak to transmission lines dropping, I can't speak for extreme heat and transformers blowing up or mechanical problems. But there is nothing to indicate a shortfall of electricity.  

JOURNALIST: Could it be the case that the industry or various industry bodies are asked to turn off power that day to save power?

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: Industry bodies turn off power through the day to save money, and they sell that capability into the market. So it's an active market. I've got nothing before me from AEMO or from my own agency that says we're going to have any shortfalls. The 35 megawatts, we can deal with.

JOURNALIST: Mr Bowen can you say the same for Victoria, New South Wales? Can you guarantee that? And if in the unlikely event that you're suggesting there are widespread blackouts, what will be your excuse the next day?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, just to be clear, as Tom very correctly said, the system prepares for all sorts of eventualities. These statements are prepared regularly and have been for years. Every single one of them at various points has warned of potential shortfalls, every single one of them at various points.

What we do, and again, people said there were going to be black outs last summer, there were no blackouts as a result of lack of capacity, none, not one, despite Mr O'Brien and Mr Dutton running around saying, "The world's going to end, we'll all be turning our lights off."

What AEMO does is manage, as Tom said, the well established relationships with industry through the work, manage the energy demand, that's well established, it happens governments of all persuasions, and that means that we are well placed to navigate difficult periods of heat or cold in Australia, and governments respond and AEMO responds, and that's what we'll do [indistinct].

JOURNALIST: It sounds like though, from what you're saying though, when you look at the graph or the data that – when you compare say Tasmania, South Australia, which generally speaking are pretty good for the next few years, it's just a total difference to New South Wales and Victoria. So how can you say that the whole country is relatively on the same page when the data doesn't say that?

CHRIS BOWEN: I didn't say that; I didn't say it, I said all governments work well together, and there's one national energy market, so States share power with each other through interconnectors; one State is short, another State providing its capacity on alliance, and that underpins and underlines the importance of the transmission we're building, to ensure that States can share power together, that's why we're – we're not doing these things for fun.

Now, of course, States, you know, have different scenarios at different times. That's, again, every Statement of Opportunities that shows that, the States are all working together with the Commonwealth and AEMO to ensure that's managed.

JOURNALIST: Just in terms of [indistinct] shortage of [indistinct] South Australia's already [indistinct] highest prices [indistinct]?

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: Well, The Australian Energy Regulator is going to release this new Default Market Offer by the end of May, and I've seen the Opposition saying that prices are going to go up. I'm prepared to bet that they're going to drop here in South Australia. I think what we’ll see is a decrease in the Default Market Offer, but whenever there's a shortage of power and more demand, prices go up on the wholesale market, and they drop because of oversupply.

The thing about South Australia is we usually have more oversupply than we do undersupply, because of our renewable resources.

The question for us is that gap, that firming gap, which is the expensive part, which is the gas fired generation. The less of that we need, the cheaper our prices are. The reason we're seeing such dramatic drops in South Australia's wholesale market is because we have so much renewable energy that gas fired turbines are being required to be used less which means power prices are dropping.

So, this theory of the Opposition's that the prices are increasing dramatically is not reflected in the wholesale markets which are seeing dramatic drops in South Australia.

JOURNALIST: Just so we're clear, can you walk us through the timeline for delivery of the hydro power plant, so are we now saying summer 26/27 is AEMO's –

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: It's the following year.

JOURNALIST: The following year. So you are still saying this might be ready at the end of '25?

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: Yes.

JOURNALIST: Okay. And then fully operational by [indistinct].

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: Yes.

JOURNALIST: That's the timeline.

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: Yes.

JOURNALIST: There's been no shirking that timeline.

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: No. In fact I can go further and say, we paid General Electric an amount of money to secure our slot with their manufacturer to make sure that we meet these timelines, and I say that, having to purchase that slot would not have been necessary if we had back up generation in place.

JOURNALIST: And how will gas be used with those particular parts? Because you talk about hydrogen and they need gas as well.

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: The thing about the technology of gas-fired turbines is they can operate on multiple fuels, they can operate through hydrogen, and they can operate on natural gas, and the conversion between the two is very quick an operation, so it gives us maximum flexibility to make sure that we can provide that security when it's necessary.

JOURNALIST: Just going on to the e-scooters conversation? As you know, there was a bit of an outcry and confusion on radio this morning. Where is the legislation at, and I guess why did [indistinct] City Councils felt the need to extend its trial for a sixth time to provide a government timeline?

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: So what we're seeing is massive disruption here. So people are buying e-scooters and they're being sold to them, but they're illegal to use on South Australian roads.

The previous government rather than institute a regulatory process to introduce e-scooters in an orderly way just ripped the band-aid off and said, "We're going to have trials across any Council area that wants to have them."

We get in just two years ago, and there's no work done on a regulatory reform, there's no work done on a legislative framework, there's no work done on what age group we should legalise this on, should they be treated like bicycles or should they be motorised vehicles, should they be registered, should you be licensed, where can they operate. None of that work was done.

We've gone about doing the difficult work to go away and come up with the regulatory funding, no legislation [indistinct], I made a commitment that it would be in the Parliament in the middle of the year, so I’m aiming for July for it to be in the Parliament, and then operational after it passes.

But I've got to say, we're never going to allow children on an e-scooter on the road, even under a legalised framework.  Parents should not be allowing children under the age of 16 on a mechanised scooter that can do as much as 40 kilometres per hour. And I say this respectfully, it's irresponsible and dangerous to mix that type of power next to motor vehicles.

JOURNALIST: And so just in terms of the change that's on the table, will they be classified to be unqualified for registration and insurance, will they –

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: No, no, we're going to treat them like bicycles. We'll treat them like e-bikes, because I think the regulatory framework is going to relax a bit. Obviously we'll introduce them, and see how it operates, police will be in charge of enforcing speed limits, we'll have a speed limit on footpaths, and a different speed limit on the road, we'll have an age limit, we're considering 16, but it may be 18, we're going to consult on this, and we're going to make sure that they wear helmets, we just want to protect pedestrians, ordinary people on footpaths.

I mean I was just telling you earlier, I get more correspondence than anyone else in government as Transport Infrastructure Minister. The complaints I get after fare evasion is from pedestrians worrying about people using motorised scooters and motorised vehicles on footpaths, and what that's causing, where we have these trials on in suburban councils.

JOURNALIST: There’s no age limit on bikes?

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: No.

JOURNALIST: Can I just get an opinion on the supermarket price –

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: Yes.

JOURNALIST: It's going on at the moment, and we'll see, and suggestions that we're being gouged here more than any other State and can the Government intervene with the supermarket prices?

TOM KOUTSANTONIS: Well, I haven't seen a report, but South Australia has fought tooth and nail to keep a lot of diversity in our supermarkets. We have the highest penetration of independent grocers here in this State than any other jurisdiction, and they are very good at getting South Australian products to market, and they are also very good at trying to compete against the behemoth of Woolworths and Coles.

Now, the worst thing we could possibly do is a complete deregulation of trading hours, which our opponents want, wipe out those independent grocers. So I'd be very keen to see the outcomes of that report.

Obviously the ACCC has got the [indistinct] powers to try to make sure that we can look into this and lower those prices, but some of those costs are also logistics. We are further away from the Eastern Seaboard than a lot of other jurisdictions. I suspect you'll see the same sort of problems in Western Australia. A lot of those are transport costs, fuel costs rather than competition.