Transcript: TV Interview ABC 7.30

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TV INTERVIEW
ABC 730
THURSDAY, 30 NOVEMBER 2023
​
Subjects: Emissions Projections, Fuel Efficiency Standards, Gas Connections, COP28.

SARAH FERGUSON: As we just saw there, the Minister for Climate Change and Energy Chris Bowen, delivered his second annual climate change statement to the Parliament. And as we just mentioned, the government says it's in striking distance of its target to reduce emissions by 43 per cent by 2030. This is despite the Climate Change Authority saying greenhouse gas emissions had risen in the twelve months to June. I spoke to Chris Bowen earlier.

Chris Bowen. Welcome to 730.

CHRIS BOWEN: My pleasure, Sarah.

SARAH FERGUSON: Now, while emissions are still rising in Australia, we're also close to reaching the emissions target that you legislated last year. What are the biggest contributions to that?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, our policy to get to 82 per cent renewable energy in our grid, which is important for emissions and reliability of our grid going forward. Also our safeguards reforms, bringing down emissions from our big industries. Look and across the board, Sarah, our comprehensive plan. So, it's pleasing. I'm pleased.

Emissions reduction was scheduled to be 30 per cent by 2030 when we came to office. The figures I'm released today show we're on track for 42. So, we're edging towards our 43 per cent target. But we got a lot more to do, Sarah. There's 72 months now to 2030. That is not long for the massive shift in economic activity that we need to see for Australia to play its role and also to ensure a reliable energy system as part of that transition.

SARAH FERGUSON: I just want to go to a couple of the details. As I just mentioned, emissions are still rising. They're led, as I understand, by pollution from cars, utes and SUVs. So, why have you rejected the recommendations of the Climate Change Authority for fuel efficiency standards?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, that's not right that we've rejected a recommendation to have a fuel efficiency standard. In fact, we will have a fuel efficiency standard and we are delivering one, and we'll have more to say about the details of that in the near future. But there was a specific recommendation about design. We have a different way.

You're right, Sarah. Transport emissions are one of the factors that we're dealing with, particularly post-pandemic. As you'd expect, people stopped moving around during the pandemic, people are now moving around. And that's reflected in the emissions figures, both land transport and aviation in particular. That's why we're developing a transport sector plan and that's why we will have fuel efficiency standards.

SARAH FERGUSON: You questioned the way I framed that particular question to you. But it does mean that we're part of a club that no one wants to be in, which is just us and Russia with no fuel efficiency standards.

CHRIS BOWEN: Because the previous government didn't do it. Josh Frydenberg had a policy of introducing fuel efficiency standards which lasted 2 hours before he got rolled by the right wing of his party, and they never got around to doing it after that. And that point you made about Russia, Sarah, is 100 per cent correct. It's a point I've made myself on many occasions. It is not a club we want to be in, Australia and Russia, the only major economies without fuel efficiency standards.

The United States has had them since the 1970s. And I think our viewers would understand, perhaps, that Australia's fuel fleet, our car fleet would be less fuel efficient than, say, Europe's, but it's also less fuel efficient than the United States. I mean, our cars are 20 per cent less efficient than the big fleet of the United States.

SARAH FERGUSON: You've also decided not to move ahead with a recommended phase-out for existing gas connections. Now, have you baulked at this because these are measures that will hurt people already suffering cost of living pressures?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I'd make two points. The recommendation was to have a coordinated national plan on phasing out gas from homes both new and existing. We have rejected that for two reasons, really. One, it's a state-based policy. The number of homes connected to gas in Tasmania is around 5 per cent and is around 76 per cent in Victoria. So, it's quite right that the response is state-based, because it varies so much from state to state and each state is going to have their own way of dealing with it.

Secondly, we're about choice. Now, we've got a $1.7 billion program to help households and businesses electrify and to convert to renewable energy. But we feel that's the better approach, providing that sort of assistance and incentive to people, is a much better approach, in our view, than some sort of nationally mandated effort to abolish gas from homes.

SARAH FERGUSON: I want to talk about the climate change conference that opens today. The biggest debate there is going to be over the push for a global agreement on phasing out oil and gas mid-century. Would Australia, will Australia sign up to such an agreement?

CHRIS BOWEN: We certainly support a strengthening of global action, absolutely. And I'll be very actively engaged in those conversations.

SARAH FERGUSON: This time let's just stick with the question. Will Australia support what is going to be a debate at COP to reach an agreement on phasing out coal and gas? Mid-century oil and gas?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, that is the question, with respect, Sarah, is how do we strengthen the world's efforts? And I'll be supporting, on behalf of Australia, sensible steps. Unlike previous arrangements, where Australia was in bad company, I'll be in very good company, arguing for a strengthening of the language. Now, I chair the Umbrella Group of Climate Change Ministers, so I'll be working with my colleagues.

So, the only call so far from the COP President has been to triple renewable energy investment and double energy efficiency. I support that. I'll be supporting that at the negotiation table. We need to see what we're asked to sign up for, but Australia will be right in there in a leadership role, arguing for stronger mitigation around the world, which is a big change to how we behaved for the last nine years.

SARAH FERGUSON: What are you going to say to what's called the High Ambition Coalition Countries who are driving this agenda when they ask you why Australia is still approving extended coal mines and new gas projects?

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, when I'm involved in international conversations, Sarah, it takes a quite different tone to the one that you just put to me, there's respect for the role Australia brings as, yes, a traditional fossil fuel economy. Yes, we are. And we need traditional fossil fuel economies as part of the conversation. I mean, we are the very type of economy we need making the transition.

SARAH FERGUSON: I don't doubt that this is a respectful engagement, but you know what happens at COP, it gets more and more tense as the days go on. That question is going to be put to you at some point what Australia's plans are with regards to its fossil fuel projects.

CHRIS BOWEN: And Australia's plans are to become a renewable energy superpower, Sarah, and to help the world decarbonise through green hydrogen and renewable energy. And there's huge interest, I mean, there's huge interest in Australia's transition. We have plenty of land, of renewable energy, of skills other countries don't have that we can actually help the world decarbonise.

Our domestic emissions are very important. Even more important is how we can help other countries decarbonise by developing our green hydrogen industry through our Hydrogen Headstart $2 billion policy, for example. Our hydrogen hubs, which I've been announcing over recent weeks, for example, to develop that export capacity which actually helps the world decarbonise. That's before we even get to our critical minerals which are also essential to the world's decarbonisation journey.

SARAH FERGUSON: But you know as well as anybody listening to this conversation that we still have to be cutting emissions. We've got, I think, 16 new projects last time I looked that had reached final financial decisions. This conversation is going to come up at the conference about those decisions that Australia is making with regards to new gas and extended coal projects.

CHRIS BOWEN: And again, Sarah, my international colleagues understand the complexities of such discussions. They understand, for example, that green steel is coming, but it's not here yet. So, we still need metallurgical coal and we need a lot more steel as part of the transition because the transition will require a lot of steel that will, as we speak, require a lot of coal. That's just a statement of fact, metallurgical coal, and my world counterparts all understand that and they know that Australia produces that metallurgical coal.

SARAH FERGUSON: There's been a lot of discussion about the role of the head of the conference, Sultan Al Jaber, particularly his push to prioritise carbon capture and other abatement measures ahead of emissions cuts. Does that undermine his legitimacy?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, Sarah, I can only speak for my interactions with him, which have been very extensive. He's the incoming COP President, but he has been very active and I've met with him on multiple occasions and we communicate with each other very regularly and sometimes daily on the telephone in the lead-up to the COP Conference. And I found him engaging, open and very keen for a good and positive outcome at this COP.

Now, whether he'll get one or not, we'll see next week, because this COP is being held in a very tense and complicated geopolitical environment, which makes his job harder. But he has been very keen for strong progress on mitigation, strong progress on loss and damage, strong progress on global climate finance, strong progress on the global stocktake and adaptation. These are all key matters before the COP next week. There's a lot of moving parts to these COP negotiations and he's been working not only with me, but obviously I talk to my global counterparts, the Canadian Minister, the UK Minister, we all compare notes and everybody has the same experience, that he's been engaged and forthright and open and wanting a good result.

SARAH FERGUSON: I'm just going to ask you one more thing. He said in October that the world does need to prepare for the inevitable phase-down of fossil fuels. He used the word inevitable. You said you talk to him sometimes daily. Have you ever asked him what inevitable means?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I think it means pretty self evidently, that the direction of travel of the world is very clear.

SARAH FERGUSON: But when? Because the question is about when.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, to be fair to him and to everyone, we're about to go into an international negotiation where different people will have different perspectives and we need to go in with a flexible approach to get a very strong outcome. The last COP was very difficult, Sarah, to be very frank with you. We were fighting, me and like-minded Ministers fighting just to hold the line, to defend what was agreed at Glasgow.

Now, that was in a very difficult environment. We want to defend what was agreed at Glasgow this time and take it forward and see a strengthening of the global efforts. I'll be part of that conversation. The key thing is to work with other Ministers who have the same objective and there's a big number of them around the world that I'll be working closely with. And as I said, the COP President has been coming at it, in my experience, in my interactions with him, with the same objective.

SARAH FERGUSON: Chris Bowen, we wish you luck for what lies ahead. Thank you very much indeed for joining us.

CHRIS BOWEN: Great pleasure, Sarah. Good on you.

ENDS