Interview with Sarah Morice, ABC News Radio

SARAH MORICE, HOST: Former NSW Energy Minister and Treasurer Matt Kean was appointed to lead the Independent Climate Change Authority and this was just days after his quite surprise exit from NSW state politics. Now Mr Kean has been critical of nuclear energy this week, a stance which is at odds with the federal Coalition's promise of building seven new nuclear reactors around the country. And this is just the latest development in Australia's climate wars. To talk about this a little more, we're joined now by Assistant Minister for Climate Change and Energy Jenny McAllister. Hi Minister.

SENATOR JENNY McALLISTER, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR CLIMATE CHANGE & ENERGY: Good morning, Sarah. How are you?

MORICE: I'm really well. Is the timing of this appointment of Matt Kean a very big coincidence?

McALLISTER: Look, Mr Kean steps in at a time when the existing chair of the Climate Change Authority has indicated his intention to stand down. And we've been really pleased to be able to appoint a person with the experience that Mr Kean will bring to the role. He's obviously a person who has served at the highest levels of government in the NSW Government and a person that our government found we were able to work with really constructively in the national interest in the period that he was serving as Energy Minister.

MORICE: We've heard an anecdote today of the fact that he was called by Chris Bowen. Minister Chris Bowen. He was actually on the train at the time he got the phone call, so obviously the government was headhunting him. Apart from being a Minister, I guess, what do you think he brings to the role technically, because it's a really spicy time for Australia when it comes to our climate change legislation and our procedures and policy going forward.

McALLISTER: The Climate Change Authority is tasked with providing the government with strong, integrated, independent advice on the economics and science of climate change. I'm sorry, Sarah, I'm in the parliament and you can hear the bells going off in the background. That is a really important role for us, that we are able to receive independent advice. And the appointment provides the opportunity for someone with real experience in examining similar forms of advice in a previous role and integrating those in forming a position for a government.

MORICE: I'm wondering, a lot of people are asking, how much is this about having a prominent Liberal voice publicly criticising the Coalition's nuclear plan?

McALLISTER: Mr Kean’s views about nuclear are well known and they're formed in the same context that we form our views about nuclear. I mean, this is a technology which all of the experts tell us is too expensive and too slow to meet the energy needs that Australia requires. And it's on that basis that we don't think it's a suitable technology for us. You know, the challenge we have, of course, is that Mr Dutton is now proposing this uncosted plan to push nuclear into Australian communities without telling us very much about it at all. The challenge we have, of course, is, and Australians have is that there is no detail about how much this will cost. There's no detail about how much energy it will produce, and there's no detail about which particular technology they plan to use on each of these sites.

MORICE: There may be little detail at the moment, but some is starting to creep through, including that the Opposition is now suggesting that the nuclear power could somehow complement renewables and the nuclear could be used to fill the gap when the renewables fall short. So, when the sun's not shining or the wind's not blowing, nuclear energy could pick up and fill that gap. What do you think of that?

McALLISTER: The most important challenge we need to deal with is that AEMO tells us that 90% of our coal fired power generation will exit the system by 2035. This isn't new news. This was information that was available to the Coalition when they were in government. In fact, they received advice that 24 of the coal fired power plants were going to announce their closure dates, and they did nothing to deal with that challenge. The proposal they are announcing now for nuclear also does nothing to deal with that challenge. They are proposing nuclear power plants that will come online according to their ambitious timetable sometime between 2035 and 2037. That's too late. The capacity that our energy system requires is required between now and 2035, and this plan does nothing to deal with that challenge at all.

MORICE: Do you think that nuclear does have a role in Australia's future, even if it is in the long term?

McALLISTER: All of the advice that we have before us is that this technology is too expensive. We have costed plans from AEMO, which look at the best balance of energy technologies to meet our needs out to 2050, and they don't include nuclear. And it's because this technology is simply much more expensive than the technologies – than renewable technologies in the Australian context.

MORICE: So, is that a no, that there should never be a mix of renewables and nuclear in your idea?

McALLISTER: We don't see a role for nuclear anytime between now and 2050. We have no plans to introduce nuclear to Australia, and it is simply on the basis of economics. Australia has abundant resources in solar. We are an attractive investment destination. We have abundant resources in wind. Peter Dutton is hiding the costs of these nuclear plans from the people who are actually going to have to pay for them. We need serious action now on power bills and emissions, and it's not clear in anyway how the plan that they are putting forward deals with these challenges.

MORICE: To some other big news that's coming out today while I'm talking to you – Parliament last night. We learned that vapes are now going to be banned from sale anywhere except pharmacies in Australia. This will happen from October. Anyone over the age of 18 won't need a prescription to buy them. It's interesting this has been watered down. We were hoping, or you were hoping to ban them completely without a prescription. It looks like a deal had to be done with the Greens and we have this compromise going on now. But the pharmacists, certainly the Pharmacy Guild, are pretty upset that they're going to be the new vape shop. How do you feel about that?

McALLISTER: Look, our laws will return vapes and e-cigarettes to what they were originally sold to the Australian people as being – therapeutic products that will help hardened smokers kick the habit. The Albanese Government has welcomed the constructive engagement that we've had with the crossbench, and we have secured the support of the Greens political party for these laws. We want to protect young Australians. We know that parents are desperately worried about this, and we really need to deal with the harms of recreational vaping. We agree with the Pharmacy Guild when they say they want people to have a conversation about the health harms of vaping before they're able to purchase one. And we think pharmacists are the right people to be able to have that conversation.

MORICE: I guess many pharmacists don't really consider a vape a health product. It may be used in some cases to help people quit cigarettes, but they're really worried that they're now going to be selling these devices to people. Is it fair to be putting this pressure on them?

McALLISTER: Look, the arrangements will be that a conversation will take place between a pharmacist and it's a very similar set of restrictions to those that are in place on other pharmacist-only products like the morning after pill, strong allergy medications and asthma puffers. These are products that will be behind the counter. The nicotine concentrations will be tightly controlled. Pharmacists will be required to check photo ID and have a conversation with that person about the health harms of vaping. So –

MORICE: What sort of a conversation? Because there'll be no restrictions. Obviously, you could go in as many times a day as you want and hand over your license and listen to the pharmacist tell you it's bad for you, but you can still keep buying them.

McALLISTER: Pharmacists are highly trained, and they are in a position to provide people with good advice about their own health needs. We know that this is an area where the community is seeking reform. We've worked across the parliament to try and gain support for strong and world-leading reforms. We actually still hope that the Opposition will support these reforms because we'd like this bill to be met with multipartisan support when it's debated in the Senate.

MORICE: It has been great to speak to you today, Minister, thanks very much for your time.

McALLISTER: It's a pleasure, Sarah, thanks for having me on.

MORICE: That's great. That is our Climate Change and Energy Minister there, Jenny McAllister.