Interview with Sarah Morice, ABC News Radio

SARAH MORICE, HOST: Well, the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Chris Bowen, will be addressing the National Press Club later today and he's going to be outlining Labor's energy pledge for the next election and comparing it to Peter Dutton's nuclear plan. For more on all of this, we're joined by the Assistant Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Jenny McAllister. Hi there, Assistant Minister. 

SENATOR JENNY McALLISTER, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR CLIMATE CHANGE & ENERGY: Good morning, Sarah. How are you? 

MORICE: I'm very well. Before we get on to energy, I'd just like to ask you about the ongoing saga with the CFMEU. The Nine newspapers have published a series of stories now detailing allegations that underworld figures, including bikies, have been parachuted into delegate roles with the Victorian branch's Construction vision – division. I know the Labor Party's National Executive is meeting today and the Albanese Government is reportedly preparing to appoint an independent administrator to overhaul the CFMEU. Is Labor going to be doing that? 

McALLISTER: I've seen some of those reports, Sarah. I mean, I think the thing to say here is that we condemn this behaviour in unequivocal terms. I mean, every day we have union members across the country going out, working responsibly, lawfully working for pay, better conditions, safety on work sites. This behaviour is the opposite of that and it can't be tolerated. Minister Burke, as you know, is the lead minister within our government for this and he's indicated that all options are on the table. He has sought advice from his department about his powers and he said that he'll be looking at that along with the allegations that are being brought forward and the response of the union in formulating the government's response. 

MORICE: You say there the behaviour can't be tolerated. But Nine newspapers claim that Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and the now Victorian Premier Allan were made aware of the allegations two years ago. Are you aware of any information that was passed on in that timeframe? 

McALLISTER: Look, I understand, and I've seen the media reports about this also, that the information that was forwarded was not in fact forwarded to the Prime Minister's office, but to another address. But the fact remains, we do need to tackle these challenges. The government's been very clear that we condemn the behaviour and the allegations that we have seen aired in recent days and we are considering all options available to us to deal with it. 

MORICE: Well, talking of the options, the NSW Premier Chris Minns has announced that the NSW Labor Party is going to suspend its connections with the CFMEU and also political donations will be stopped. Should federal Labor follow this lead? Stop the donations? 

McALLISTER: We've seen strong action from the Victorian Premier, from the NSW Premier, and as I've indicated, the Federal Government is thinking about the options available to us to clean up this union. 

MORICE: Why is it taking longer for the federal Labor Party to work out what it wants to do if the states can already take such strong action? 

McALLISTER: We'll take the time that is necessary to work with the states and work through the legal options that are available to us. It's important that we get it right. And Minister Burke has indicated it's a priority to him, but I'm not going to get ahead of any decisions that he might take. 

MORICE: Well, we'll certainly be watching with some interest to see what does happen. Let's move on to energy now. What will Minister Chris Bowen's message today be at the National Press Club? 

McALLISTER: Well, Australians will face a very clear choice when we go to the next election when we're thinking about energy. The transition to reliable renewables is well underway. It's backed by experts and we know that reliable renewables are the cheapest form of new power. In contrast, Mr Dutton is serving up the most expensive form of energy that there is, nuclear, and it is a recipe for higher bills. It's also a recipe for unreliability because none of these plants could possibly be ready in time for the retirement of the ageing coal fired generators that are largely scheduled to exit the system by 2035. 

MORICE: Is Labor ideologically opposed to nuclear energy or is it more about the financial costs and the timeframe that you're talking about there? 

McALLISTER: Our principal concerns really are about the economy. We have an enormous opportunity to participate in the global transition to net zero. And if we can bring on renewables now, we can be part of a global decarbonisation process that will see enormous demand for green hydrogen, for green metals and other clean products. Mr Dutton's plan, which is to delay action till 2040, jeopardises all of that economic opportunity. And on top of that, as I've already said, this is an expensive form of new generation. It is not the right solution for Australian consumers and Australian businesses. 

MORICE: So, would you entertain the idea of nuclear some time down the track, not immediately, but some time down the track as being part of our energy mixed. 

McALLISTER: The point that Chris Bowen will make today is that this technology is not well suited to be integrated with a big portfolio of renewables. Because nuclear power runs all the time, it's difficult to start and it's difficult to turn off. But in the middle of the day, almost every day, we have near free power. Is Mr. Dutton's plan to have nuclear energy feeding into that system, forcing consumers to buy an expensive form of power when there is a near free alternative available at the time. This just doesn't make economic sense. 

MORICE: Well, the government says that the country is relying too heavily on ageing coal fired power stations, hence bringing in all this renewable energy. But much of the community is opposed to what the government is proposing. The wind, the solar farms. There's been a lot of community outrage around that. And that means there's also been delays to crucial transmission lines. So, is it inevitable that if we go ahead with pushing ahead with just the renewables, that it's inevitable that we're going to have to rely on coal even if Labor doesn't want to and we have to rely on it for longer?

McALLISTER: Can I make this point, Sarah? It's not my experience that community is opposed to renewables. In fact, where everywhere I go I hear people talking about the need to move purposefully and quickly into the transition. There are communities, of course, that have questions about how particular projects will benefit them or will impact them. And those are really serious and important questions at community scale that we have to answer. I was with a very large group of renewable energy project developers yesterday and there was unanimity in the room that government and project developers need to work in very close connection with communities to make sure that they feel included in the processes of decision making and can see the benefits that they will receive from decisions about renewables in communities. But this is a transition that is underway. It has the potential to bring very significant jobs and industries into regional Australia and we're determined to make sure that as the reliable renewables are rolled out, communities also benefit from the transition. 

MORICE: Yes, I agree with you. I worded that poorly. I should have said that communities are opposed to the way, some communities, are opposed to the way the government's rolling out the renewable energy, which is leading to these delays. And we know we are not seeing the amount of renewable energy projects getting up and going that we would like and perhaps we even need if we're going to hit our net zero targets. So, I guess back to that question. Does that mean we're going to have to rely on coal for even longer if we can't get all these renewable energy plans up and running? 

McALLISTER: Well, as far as I can tell, that is the actual plan of the Coalition, I'll just make that point. But we are really clear that the target that we have set for the renewables rollout is ambitious but achievable. It's not an easy target, and it's one that we need to work at. We've put in place new policy mechanisms to give greater certainty for project developers. We're working closely with the states and territories to reform planning arrangements so that we can have greater certainty in the planning system for both communities and for project proponents. And we're really determined to work swiftly on this. I'll make the point that it would have been better had all of this started when the Coalition were in power. We had ten years of denial and delay, a period in which four gigawatts of dispatchable capacity went out of the system and only one came on. There was never any plan during the last Coalition Government to deal with these retiring, ageing, coal fired power stations. And unfortunately, it seems that that is still the case for the Dutton Opposition. 

MORICE: And you mentioned there, there is a determination to push ahead on what is an ambitious plan. Will that pushing ahead happen even if communities don't want the projects as they stand now, the way they're being rolled out in their communities? Will we see communities overridden on that? 

McALLISTER: We always want communities to have a say in the way that projects are rolled out. And we're undertaking significant reform nationally, as well as working with states and territories to improve the opportunities for communities to have their say when projects are being brought forward. We're also seeing states and territories take important decisions to make sure that local communities do receive benefits and local landowners receive benefits from projects. But it's important to remember that there are jobs, opportunities, and industries that come with these projects. We're investing significantly right across the country in TAFE, in Vocational Education and Training, in apprenticeships, so that we can make sure that we have a workforce that stands ready to benefit from some of these very significant projects, many of which will happen in regional communities where jobs and industries we know are immensely important. 

MORICE: Well, certainly I think a lot of eyes will be on the National Press Club today to hear what the Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen has to say. Thank you for your time this morning. 

McALLISTER: Thank you, Sarah. Nice to talk. 

MORICE: Yeah, you too. That's Assistant Minister for Climate Change and Energy Jenny McAllister there.