2GB interview with Minister for the Environment and Water Tanya Plibersek

 
LUKE GRANT, HOST: We're told today that Labor's proposed Nature Positive reforms, which will include the establishment of a new federal environmental watchdog, will return to the Senate next week — that’s according to The Australian newspaper.

Now, this follows the Government pulling the legislation from the Senate Notice Paper, we're told, today. A Government source said the decision has been made to instead give priority to pass its Future Made in Australia industrial policy overhaul.

While the Environment Minister, Tanya Plibersek, has attempted to ink a deal with the Coalition to pass her reforms, apparently that's been unable to be done, that deal. So, there is concern by some, particularly in the business lobby, that this will be a deal done between the Federal Government and the Greens. And the Greens, we're told, have demanded something called the climate trigger and an end to native forest logging in return for their support. Well, that's what they're saying.

For all of this and more, to discuss, the Environment Minister of Australia, Tanya Plibersek, good afternoon.

TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: It's great to talk to you, Luke. How are you?

GRANT: Yeah, I'm really well. How are you doing?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, good. Very good, thank you.

GRANT: Outstanding. Can you tell me what a climate trigger is? I mean, there's lots of things I can guess and laugh about, but you know what it is. What is it?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, I mean, I guess, Luke, this is one of the problems we've got. We actually think, as a Government, that we've got enough disclosure and information about carbon pollution in the environment. We've got our Safeguard Mechanism that the Parliament has already passed, which has, you know, got us on a path to reduce our carbon emissions, and net zero by 2050. So, we're actually happy with the way things are.

The current laws that we've got, that have gone through the House of Representatives   our environment laws   and they're now sitting in the Senate, we don't think they need a climate trigger. But we've got to deal with the Senate that the Australian people elected, so we've been talking to the Liberals, we've been talking to the Nationals, we've been talking to the Greens, we've been talking to the independents about getting our laws passed. And what I've said all along is we're gonna take our time, we need a bit of common sense, a bit of compromise, and a bit of ability to work together to get the most sensible set of laws through our Parliament.

As I say, they've already gone through the House of Representatives. We've had a Senate inquiry into the laws and now we're talking to all of the senators about where we can get support to get our package through the Parliament.

GRANT: Where does it leave you politically, having to deal with the Greens? Now, I would argue and, Minister, you might disagree but the Greens today are, I think, unpalatable, given what they've done in relation to... Well, we had the member in Brisbane standing up and cheering on the CFMEU at a protest a week or two back. We've got... I think the Greens are knee deep in anti Semitism. And the way they've dealt with that whole conflict and politicised it, I think is of great concern. And I just wonder at what point sensible people, who support your politics, look at you and go, "Now, you keep deferring to the Greens, or having to defer to the Greens, and they're giving me the outcome that I don't really want." How do you manage that?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, look, I actually agree with you on Max Chandler Mather standing up in Brisbane, and it does concern me that some of their members, like him, are more interested in defending John Setka than they are in defending the environment. But, like I say, we live in a democracy, we work with the Senate that the Australian people sent us. We're very happy today, for example, that the Liberals and Nationals have been prepared to work with us on aged  are reform. We know how absolutely vital it is to make the changes that were recommended by the Aged Care Royal Commission.

We needed to move on some of the things that we wanted to do on aged care, we needed to make some compromises, but we were able to do that. We're able to get a sensible set of laws that the Liberals and Nationals are saying that they'll back. And that's why we're talking to them about the environment laws as well. We would love to see a sensible set of compromises that the Liberals and Nationals can back. But I've gotta talk to everyone. This is the nature of democracy. We work with the Senate that the Australian people elected.

GRANT: I'm hearing you and, you know, I'm agreeing with you. It's exactly right, what you say. But as someone who lives probably to the right of centre   no surprises there   a deal with you and the Libs or the Nats is so much more palatable. I don't know if I'm kind of upset by the...

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Tell your friends in the Liberal Party, then, Luke!

GRANT: Yeah, thanks for that.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Tell your friends in the Liberal Party. Truly, look, I understand why... You're talking about... These are not the Greens of days past, you know?

GRANT: Exactly.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: These are not your standard, sort of, old fashioned environmentalists that are out there defending the truth. And to be honest with you, I think most Australians, if you say to them, you know, do you want your kids and grandkids to be able to see a koala in the wild? If you go fishing, do you want to pull a barramundi out of a river instead of a carp, they would say yes. They actually want sensible environmental protections. Most Australians, if you love your country, then you love the nature that makes it so special, right? Most of us are in this broad kind of area of agreement. And I would really love to see a path forward here where we get majority support.

The laws I'm proposing are really a sensible set of laws that better protect nature but they also give faster, clearer decisions for business. Our natural world has been under real pressure, we're seeing increased numbers of threatened species, we're seeing all sorts of problems in our natural landscapes   weeds, feral animals, all the rest of it. We need to deal with those problems. But we're also hearing from business all the time that they want more certainty, they want more predictability, they want faster decisions that are clearer, that give them more guidance up front about what's gonna be acceptable and what's gonna be unacceptable. We want to do that. They're the laws that we've got.

You know, I don't really want to be compromising the set of laws that I've proposed. I think they're a very sensible set of laws as they are, but we don't control the Senate. That's the way our democracy works.

GRANT: Is it difficult to preference Greens, having said all of that? It must be.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Look, you're very focused on the Greens. I guess I'm... You know, I'm in a world where I...

GRANT: I'm worried about things!

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, no, I understand that. But I've also got, on the other hand, I've got the Liberals and Nationals, who find it very difficult to agree with the Government on anything, even things that they used to support. You know, why would the Liberals and Nationals be opposed to things like electricity bill relief or cheaper child care? Now they're saying that they want to cut $315 billion from the Budget   well, that's things like pension increases, that's things like cheaper medicines, and, you know, Medicare urgent care clinics. So, it's not always easy to find agreement with our opponents. But I think our democracy is served well when we try. That's what we're trying to do.

GRANT: Do you agree with me when I say this week, in particular, it seems the Government's got its skates on? I mean, wherever you look, there's a significant policy development. Now, I wouldn't dare suggest that's a result of polls. I think you should be miles in front and you aren't. But it just seems like, you know, it's getting   it's not the end of the year but we're getting on and, all of a sudden, the Government is doing lots of things?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, I think we've been a pretty busy Government the whole way. But you're right, that this week that list you went through   the aged care reforms being introduced, that is a huge piece of work that the Minister, Anika Wells, has done. It's a really fundamental reform of aged care that puts the person at the centre of the system instead of the companies that run aged care. That's going to make such a difference to the quality of care that people get into the future.

You mentioned earlier the other one. We're trying to do something to keep kids safe from some of the really, terrible, dangerous stuff that's happening in the online world. And we're looking at serious things like misinformation and disinformation that's deliberately harmful and serious misinformation and disinformation. We've seen some overseas countries trying to interfere in election campaigns around the world, and so on. We've got some real concerns about what's going on in the online world that we're trying to tackle right now.

We're working on our Future Made in Australia program. We want to see more stuff made here in Australia. We have so much wealth in this country, you know, in our critical minerals, in our agriculture. We've got so much going on, so much going for us, we want to make sure that we are making more of those products here in Australia.

Now, the bells have just started to ring here for the House of Representatives, which means I think I've got a vote that I need to run down to, Luke.

GRANT: OK.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Will you excuse me if I...?

GRANT: Oh, of course, I will.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Oh, no, hang on a minute, I've just been told it's a quorum. That's OK. It's not a vote. We can keep talking.

GRANT: OK. OK, good.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: We're conditioned. I see a green light flashing and a bell ringing and I know it's time to run. But I've just had someone pop their head in and tell me it's just a quorum, not a vote.

GRANT: Now you've got a problem with the colour green that's terrible! I want to ask about the mine in Blayney, obviously.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Sure.

GRANT: And I've watched you in Question Time respond and say that you've followed the same practices that Sussan Ley did when she was Minister.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yep.

GRANT: I read on the weekend that what she did was she opposed a skate park. Is that right? Was it that?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: No. It was a go kart track on the top of Mount Panorama. It was a very substantial local issue in Bathurst at the time and she listened to the same group of people I've listened to, she used the same law, the same section of the law, using the same reasons. She also took the advice from her department in the same way as I took advice from my department. I've got thousands of pages of evidence here.

I think one of the things that people kind of misunderstand here is that it's being presented as though there's one group of Aboriginal people in favour of the mine and there's one group opposed to the mine. That's actually not right. There's a number of groups, Aboriginal groups, that say that the area should be protected, and there's one group that is neutral on it, and that's the Orange Local Aboriginal Land Council that is being portrayed by some people as being in favour of the project. They're not in favour, they're neutral.

But can I say this? The mine can still go ahead. I have not made a decision to stop the mine. What I've said is that, in this 2,500 hectare site, 400 hectares needs to be protected 'cause it's particularly significant, and that's the area that's the headwaters and the springs of the Belubula River. It does have particular significance to Traditional Owners. But I'd say, just incidentally, that the voices that are also being ignored in this are the local farming community, who have welcomed my decision. There's something called the Belubula Headwaters Protection Group, for example, that have welcomed my decision because they've got their own concerns about what happens to the river.

So, the sort of portrayal of this as a fight between two Indigenous groups is really, I think, does a disservice to the complexity of the issue.

GRANT: Right. I didn't know about that farming group. Can I just ask you one more? Does -  

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Oh, well, the local farmers are really concerned about it 'cause they've got sheep, they've got goats, they've got bees downstream. That's not the reason I made the decision but it is interesting that those voices aren't being heard in this discussion.

GRANT: They're not being heard. Yeah, you're right. So, is it fair to say that a go kart track proposal has the same measures or standards or permissions required as a billion dollar goldmine? Is that really the case?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: No, but, Luke, here's the thing. I haven't stopped the goldmine. What I've said is they can't build the dump on the headwaters of the river. 16 per cent of the site is what I've protected. 400 hectares out of 2,500. 16 per cent of the site is what I've protected. And just incidentally, the CEO and the Chair of the Board have bought thousands of extra shares in the company since I made my decision. Last time I checked, the share price was up about 8 per cent. I think it looks as though the company, its directors, its CEO, probably see a way through here, if they're buying extra shares right now and if the share price is going up, right? What would that tell you?

GRANT: It tells me a lot. Lovely to talk to you. Stay well! Good on you.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Always a pleasure.

GRANT: Thank you.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Thank you so much for having me on the show.