ABC Melbourne Drive interview with Minister for the Environment and Water Tanya Plibersek

SUBJECTS: CLOSURE OF LOY YANG, RENEWABLE ENERGY, GREATER GLIDER POSSUM, SOFT PLASTIC RECYCLING, SENTENCING OF SEAN TURNELL IN BURMA. 

RAFAEL EPSTEIN HOST: Tanya Plibersek is in town she is the Environment Minister, she is part of Anthone Albanese’s Cabinet and is the Federal Member for Sydney. Thank you for coming in.

PLIBERSEK: It’s a pleasure.

EPSTEIN: Are we ready to lose that much power by 2035 from a coal-fired power station?

TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: The first thing to say about the announcement today is that there are obviously a lot of families, workers in those power stations in the communities that they’re part of who got some pretty bad news for them, and we really need to make sure that in this transition we are really looking after those people and the affected communities. 

EPSTEIN: But are we ready? Like, when we lose that power, we – we’ve known for a long time these things are going to shut, are we going to be okay when it shuts? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, we’re going to have to be, and that means that the next decade is going to be a really important time for investment in transmission and, of course, we’ve got our Powering the Nation Plan that focuses on transmission, on firming batteries. I know the Victorian Government’s recently made a hugely impressive announcement about batteries. It means that we need to take the advice of our energy experts, because at the end of the day we know that renewables are cheaper. It’s just making sure that we’ve got the capacity to put them into the grid and move the electricity between the homes and the businesses around the country that need that power. 

It is a reminder that the last decade of Federal Government inaction, of time wasting and denial with 22 separate energy policies that they didn’t land a single one of, this is the consequence of that decade of inaction. 

EPSTEIN: I get the criticism that not much has been done, but most of us have no idea how the grid actually operates and works, so I guess I’m asking you: why should we believe that you’re going to be better at this? Why should we believe that you will actually lay out the groundwork so that in 10 years time, we’ll be okay? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, because you can see that we’ve already started work on this huge project. Look, there’s no question that renewable energy is not just cheaper; it’s cleaner and it’s cheaper. 

EPSTEIN: We don’t have a choice. 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: You know, there’s a reason that more than a million households have solar panels on their roofs. Some of them are environmentalists; a lot of them just want cheaper power. So, we know that renewables are cheaper as well as cleaner. The challenge is in firming up that power, and we’ve got terrific experts like the Australian Energy Market Operator telling us what need to do to cope with the extra renewables that we want to put into our electricity grid. We’ve got a plan to do that. We’ve got money set aside to do that at the federal level. We’ve got terrific partners like the Victorian Government that we want to the work with. 

It is a challenge and, today, really the focus does have to be on the communities that will be affected by these closures and helping them plan what their future holds. But this transition to cheaper, cleaner, renewable energy isn’t just happening in Australia; it’s happening globally and it can be an amazing opportunity for Australia as well. 

You see the export deals that have been signed recently for green energy exports. We will continue to be an energy-exporting nation, but we’re going to be exporting different types of energy. 

EPSTEIN: 1300 222 774. I’ve been asking you that today: do you think we are ready? You’re hearing today from the Environment Minister in Anthony Albanese’s cabinet. I’ll come to some logging issues here in a moment. You keep mentioning the workers. I genuinely don’t know the answer to this question. Is there federal money for the workers whose jobs will end in 2035? Is there federal assistance for them? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Look, we’ve only just heard the news today. I’ve only just heard the news this morning, so I know that our Energy and Climate Change Minister Chris Bowen will be working very closely with the Victorian Government. 

EPSTEIN: Let me ask you a question about logging here in Victoria. You recently added the greater glider possum, a very cute looking animal from the pictures I’ve seen, you recently put it – made it endangered. It was vulnerable, so you upgraded it to endangered. But VicForests are still logging their habitat. Should that logging stop? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: So, we did increase the listing. We up-listed it, as the experts say, from vulnerable to endangered because 35 per cent of the habitat of the greater glider was burnt during the Black Summer bushfires. These are the largest gliding possums in Australia. They’re absolutely beautiful creatures, and I think it is very important that we protect as much of their habitat as possible. 

EPSTEIN: So why are we logging it? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, the Regional Forestry Agreements that are in place in a number of states and territories do have to be responsive to changed circumstances, and it is something that the Victorian Government could look at. The up-listing of the greater glider to endangered might change some of the patterns of logging. But we also need to – 

EPSTEIN: So, when you say – you just used two words there: they could look at it and it might change. What does that mean? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, it means that state governments are responsible for these sorts of land use issues. At a federal level, we’ve put close to $1.7 million into projects to protect the greater glider and more than $10 million into a project that protects a group of animals that live in a similar habitat, an ecological community, and so there’s great work happening, for example, at the Australian National University. They’ve got a breeding program they’re looking at how different types of nesting boxes provide habitat for greater gliders so they can move back into territory that has been burnt out as that territory recovers. 

EPSTEIN: They all sound like reasons for VicForests to stop. Is that something you asked of your state environment colleague in Victoria today? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: No. It’s a matter for the Victorian Government. But I think it is important to say in a general sense the more habitat we can protect, the better for the natural environment, no question. 

EPSTEIN: Did you talk about it at all with Lily D’Ambrosio today? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Today, we were talking about recycling and we made some really important recycling announcements today. 

EPSTEIN: 1300 222 774 is the phone number. You’re hearing here from Tanya Plibersek. 

Let’s get on to the recycling then. We try to, as a family, take to the supermarket the soft scrunchy stuff that won’t go in my recycling bin. I am very dubious that that stuff actually gets turned into anything other than sitting in some – in a pile somewhere. Is it likely to be turned into another product? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah; well, the amazing, fantastic news today was a $3 million announcement we made in investing in soft plastic recycling. You’re right to be a little bit sceptical about soft plastic recycling. As a nation, we recycle less than four per cent of soft plastics. I mean, we’re not doing terrifically well at plastic recycling yet, overall, but soft plastics ... 

EPSTEIN: Do we need to spend more? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: We need to do more, yeah. And we’ve got some really substantial investment coming in new recycling plant. But the $3 million we announced today was specifically for soft plastic recycling. And the really interesting thing about the soft plastic recycling and the plant we went to today had a little test laboratory where they’re doing this, is because it’s a chemical process rather than a mechanical process – so you’re not chopping up, melting down the plastic again; you’re actually reducing it to its constituent oil precursor products – you can recycle infinitely. Like, normally, if you’re just chopping up plastic and melting it down and reforming it, you lose integrity of the plastic and eventually it’s not really that good for holding drinks or whatever; you can’t trust it as much in the end. 

There’s a few new types of chemical recycling that are coming onto the market now. That gives us the potential for infinite recycling, so you’re not using new petrochemicals. You’re not using virgin materials. That is incredibly exciting. And if we can get the economics of this right, of plastic recycling, not only will you have people picking up your plastic at the kerbside, but potentially if we get the economics of it right, it can become cost-effective to suck plastic out of the environment, so out of landfill, out of oceans. 

EPSTEIN: Don’t we have to force the people who are selling us food, don’t we have to force the food manufacturers to cough up some of the cash? Because we’re all paying to recycle their waste. Don’t the food manufacturers have to contribute? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: So, I thought you were going to ask a different question. Yes, we have to work with food manufacturers, and the food manufacturers are involved in this product stewardship circular economy stuff with packaging. But there’s also – I thought were you going to ask me: don’t we need to force them to use alternate materials? 

EPSTEIN: Well, that too. 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: And this is really exciting, too. Of course, we’re phasing out single-use plastics. We’re getting rid of particularly problematic plastics as well. But we’re also, I think, on the cusp of a kind of revolution in packaging, because you see scientists developing things like genuinely biodegradable package materials made out of algae. You couldn’t tell the difference between Glad Wrap and this algae-based plastic. But imagine the difference between using something that you need to formulate out of petrochemicals compared with using something that you make out of algae? As the algae grows it, it sucks carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere. 

EPSTEIN: I love the technology. 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: It’s great. 

EPSTEIN: Don’t we have to force the people who put the stuff on the supermarket shelf to be part of this? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, I think absolutely a bit of stick. A little bit of carrot and a little bit of stick works in this area. And, so, you see things like the recycling labelling on packaging really informing consumer choice. Consumers want to use less plastic. They want to use, if they’re using plastic they want it to be recycled. They want plastic alternatives. People really do make good choices when you give them the information to make good choices, and that’s why a lot of businesses are doing this voluntarily. They know their consumers want to do less harm to the environment. And then with the particularly problematic materials, yeah, we’re actually phasing out a lot of them. 

EPSTEIN: We’ll talk about more carrot, less stick next time. Just a bit of breaking news if I can. We heard earlier today Sean Turnell who’s the Australian economist, who was an adviser to Aung San Suu Kyi, he’s been detained in Burma. He’s been sentenced to three years in jail in Myanmar. Just an initial response to that? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I’m not sure whether there is any appeal underway and I’m certain that our Foreign Minister, Penny Wong, will be doing her very best to support him. 

EPSTEIN: Tanya Plibersek, thank you for coming in. 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Thank you.