Sunrise interview with Minister for the Environment and Water Tanya Plibersek

SUBJECTS: Chinese military exercises in Taiwan Strait, blocking of proposed Queensland coal mine, increased wages for aged-care workers 

NATALIE BARR, HOST: Now, Australia’s relations with China are deteriorating yet again. Beijing has condemned Australia’s criticism of its military exercises in the Taiwan Strait. Yesterday Chinese forces carried out what appeared to be a simulated invasion of the island. That prompted Taiwan to scramble fighter jets in response. 
Joining me now are Labor’s Environment Minister Tanya Plibersek and Nationals MP Barnaby Joyce. Good morning to both of you. Tanya, basically China wants the West to take notice here. This was a– it appeared to be a rehearsal of an invasion – 14 ships and 20 aircraft. What do we do? How dangerous is this situation? 

TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: Well, it’s obviously very troubling to see this sort of behaviour. It is quite over the top behaviour, and the government has been very clear in urging all parties to reduce tensions. Penny Wong has been clear in her message to her counterpart that we need to reduce tensions. I mean, this is essentially a response to Nancy Pelosi visiting Taiwan. In that – I mean, it’s just a complete over reaction. 

BARR: Yes, so, Barnaby, then Penny Wong says something, then China criticises us. It was like a simulated attack on Taiwan. Should Australia stay out of this? How do we play this? 

BARNABY JOYCE, NATIONALS MP: We can’t. It seems the way China’s acting under Xi Jinping that it’s looking inevitable. It’s just the form it takes. And all three outcomes and only one possible response. First outcome is America does nothing, in which case we become part of the South China Sea with a foot on our throat. America does act, in which case they’re not going to let their sons and daughters from Kansas and Nebraska, New York get killed. They’ll want us – on our behalf. We’ll have to participate in possibly a hot war, which would be disastrous are tens of thousands of casualties. Or the worst outcome – America participates and loses, in which case the land we live in has just changed. 
Now, there’s only one response – we have to become as powerful as possible as quickly as possible, which must put our mind to what is really important. As important as climate change is it’s not as important as making this nation as powerful as possible as quickly as possible because what is your other alternative and how else can you possibly read it? 

BARR: Okay. Tanya, you intend to block a coal mine project backed by Clive Palmer in your first major decision as Environment Minister, your new job. Why don’t you think this should go ahead? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, we’re still in the 10-day consultation period before the decision is finalised, so I’m just going to be a bit careful about what I say. The reason I’m proposing to block this coal mine is because it’s less than 10 kilometres from the Great Barrier Reef Marine National Park. It’s got significant potential impacts on water – on the land as well. I’m not going to say too much about it because the decision is open for a consultation period. And I want to give everybody the opportunity of having their say on it before I make my final decision. 

BARR: Barnaby, are you in favour of this project given it would damage the Great Barrier Reef? 

JOYCE: Well, let’s – that’s one opinion. Let’s get to the bottom of it. I respect the process. What I also say is basically to what I said before – our deficit is – I see reports that it might be halved because of exports of coal and gas and iron ore, but coal and gas are the main ones that are really helping our nation out. So, we’ve got to be really, really careful of saying the word no. Like, we’ve also got to understand the reality we’re in. If we want to become as strong as possible as quickly as possible, we’ve got to make money, which means we can’t just say – you know, find all these reasons to stop ours making money. Because we have – we’ve got to understand the world we now live in. We’ve got to understand what is before us. And unfortunately, we’ve got to become a bit harder and tougher in our mind set in how we go about this. 

BARR: And so – 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Nat, can I just add something on this? 

BARR: Yes, Tanya. 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: The Great Barrier Reef in a good year, before COVID, it’s about $6.4 billion worth of tourism income, and it supports 64,000 jobs. So we need to look after our Great Barrier Reef as well. That’s an important environmental thing to do, but it’s also an important economic thing. 

BARR: Yeah, Barnaby, it’s not in isolation, is it? 

JOYCE: I understand that. The mining industry makes multiple, multiple times that, well in excess of – I think even coal alone is in excess of $100 billion. So, you know, to compare the two is – we are not going to destroy the barrier reef. Of course no-one wants to do that. But if we go around the countryside saying no to every project, we’re fools because we’ll become poor, and poor people can’t defend themselves. So, we’ve got to understand what we’re doing. 

BARR: Okay. Well, let’s talk about how people are supporting themselves. This is an important one. The government will today lodge a submission to the Fair Work Commission supporting a significant pay rise for aged care. Tanya, when can workers expect to see their wages go up? They weren’t affected by the last wage rise, the aged care workers, were they? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: No. Well, the Fair Work Commission will consider all of the submissions, so the government will put in a submission, the employers will, unions will, of course. And the Fair Work Commission will make a decision. We have said as a government that we will fund that decision. So, if it flows through as increased wages, as the biggest contributor to supporting aged care, the government will find the extra money we need. 
You’ve got to think about what aged care workers are earning at the moment. They’re earning as little as $22 an hour. So, you can literally earn more stacking shelves at a supermarket than caring for some of our most vulnerable Australians. We do need to see a wage increase. We can’t find enough staff to work in aged care. One of the reasons is that people can’t afford to. Even if they love their job they can’t afford to keep working in aged care because they just can’t pay the bills on 22 bucks an hour. 

BARR: Yeah. Barnaby, that’s a good point. We are thousands and thousands of workers down in this industry, aren’t we? Look, sorry, we’ve just actually got to leave it there. We’ve got breaking news.