Sunrise interview with Minister for the Environment and Water Tanya Plibersek

NATALIE BARR: Well, all eyes are on the Federal Government who will release their pre-election budget tomorrow night where cost of living sweeteners may soon be unveiled in addition to an extra $150 of energy bills for every household. That promise was quickly backed by the Coalition who were also quick to match Labor's major Medicare pledge and latest cheaper medicines policy. Mr Dutton's ‘me too’ approach reminds us of this scene from When Harry Met Sally. And those of you who know the movie would remember what happened before that. For their take, let's bring in Environment Minister Tanya Plibersek and Nationals MP Barnaby Joyce. Good morning to you. Barnaby, is the Coalition like the woman in When Harry Met Sally?

BARNABY JOYCE: Well, I have to admit I've had a deprived childhood. I haven't seen When Harry Met Sally.

BARR: Oh.

BARR: You haven't seen what Meg Ryan did before that?

JOYCE: No. No. Maybe we could talk about that offline. It sounds like - that might be a bit private.

BARR: Okay.

JOYCE: I think one of the biggest issues is people have got to understand when you come to a budget, it's your money. It's not the government's money. The government's merely handing back or allocating the funds that you have paid in your taxes when you worked all of Monday and half a Tuesday to pay your taxes. And if they don't get it from there, they're getting it by borrowing it from overseas, which you'll have to then pay back later on. So, sweeteners are really just you getting paid in your own sugar. And when you think about it, what you're doing is people are putting presents on your credit card so that they get voted for to be the school captain. So, I think we're going to have to be very mindful of that and see that, you know, that we have a path that fixes our cost of living. Such things by, I'd love to see them remove the subsidies of intermittent power, but of course they won't do that. Stop sending money overseas to foreign companies to drive our price of power through the roof. It's a very important night. And imagine Jim Chalmers has got his under lock and key. I'd say that Angus Taylor would be keeping his cards close to his chest as well.

BARR: But Barnaby, you're saying I'll have what they're having. You're backing most of the things that Labor is announcing, things that you voted - things that the Coalition voted against last year, like the energy bill relief that you, I think Mr Dutton called a band-aid on a bullet wound and a con job. You guys are now saying, we'll do it.

JOYCE: Well, unless you move away from intermittent power, you're not going to fix your power price. You're not going to fix the cost of living. I mean that is just a fact. But what we are seeing now is the Labor Party working on the idea of ignorance. That people don't realise that they're just getting their own money back. And of course, if you're going to -

BARR: Why are you backing it then?

JOYCE: Because people, otherwise they just swindle their way into government and because everyone just says, oh yeah, that's a great idea, I'm going to get $300 off my excessively high power bill which is going to continue going up because we've changed the, we've gone to this mad way of producing power, intermittent power, euphemistically called renewables. And they're working on the ignorance of the people and we just can't let them get away with it.

BARR: Okay, so you just have to - Tanya, they have to join you, I guess. Is bill relief the only thing that you can do here?

TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: Well, bill relief is important and we're proud of the fact that we'll be giving every Australian household another $150 off their energy bills. We're also investing in Medicare. It's a huge investment in making sure people are able to go to the doctor with a bulk billed visit. We're taking medicine prices down to $25. It's the first time in decades medicines have cost as little as $25. Big investment in women's health as you know. And of course, we're helping more young Australians into a home of their own by expanding our Help to Buy scheme. And just incidentally, Barnaby keeps talking about intermittent power like there has not been a single day over the last two years that there hasn't been a coal fired power station go down because they're 40 or 50 years old. If you're talking about intermittent, it's the 24 coal fired power stations that Barnaby Joyce was told when he was in government were going to reach the end of their natural lives and be decommissioned, that they did nothing to replace. They keep breaking down because they're old. So, we have to rebuild our energy system. We're doing that. You never did it. We're doing that. And we've added 15 gigawatts of renewable energy to the grid already.

JOYCE: Tanya, you're not rebuilding it, you're blowing it up, some of the coal fired power stations, you're literally blowing up. And if you're saying that intermittent power, like -

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: You were told that they were closing by their operators.

JOYCE: Just let me finish, just let me finish. You've got little bit of a breeze here, right. But not enough to turn a turbine. So, right now you would have no intermittent power. That's why it's called intermittent. It intermittently happens -

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, they're called batteries Barnaby. Same as it doesn't always rain but we've got dams.

JOYCE: Now coal fired power stations go all the time. They go all the time. Now, what you're talking about is a break - you're talking about a breakdown. Well, why didn't, rather than giving the subsidies to overseas companies so they can take our money from the households that are doing it so tough and take it back to Shanghai or to Paris or where overseas where they live -

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: That's why we're offering energy bill relief which you opposed.

JOYCE: How about you use that to reinvest in base load power so that people get some, there is no cure to their cost of living if you keep going down intermittent because the more and more intermittent that Tanya and the Labor Party and Chris Bowen, the genius of Chris Bowen put on the grid. Haven't you noticed the higher and higher power bills go. And they said we're going to give you, she said. Tanya said we're going to give you $150. No Tanya, you're giving us back $150 that you took off us.

BARR: Well, you're doing it. You said yes, so.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Power bills were down by 25 per cent.

BARR: Barnaby, you're doing renewables too. Isn't your plan 54 per cent renewables as well? You're not against it?

JOYCE: We don't have the 2030 target. They got 82 per cent, 82 per cent is what the Labor Party wants by 2030 it is a catastrophe. 
There's not one person who believes it anymore.

BARR: Well, there are a few, it's kind of 50/50. When are you going to release your plan, Barnaby?

JOYCE: Who believes, who in the Coalition believes we should have 82 per cent by 2030?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: How much will it cost, Nat?

BARR: Yeah. When are you releasing your plan, Barnaby?

JOYCE: Well, that's obviously, I'd love to be the Treasurer or the Finance Minister. That is not my job. So, no doubt they will be doing that. But you can't seriously keep saying that what you're doing to the electricity grid is working. It is a disaster and everybody's paying for it.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Nuclear will add $1200 to people's bills.

JOYCE: Oh, that is like the same modelling, is that the same modelling, is that the same modelling that was going to get us $275 back?

BARR: Really, is that right, Barnaby?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Which will mean $600 billion of taxpayers money. You keep talking about taxpayers money. Why would you spend $600 billion on nuclear to push up bills.

JOYCE: Tanya, we can't believe any of your modelling because its never right -

BARR: Barnaby, is yours going to cost $600 billion? Barnaby is that how much yours is going to cost? I noticed Angus Taylor on the ABC yesterday didn't know. So, do you know?

JOYCE: The OECD came out with a, and basically we've said that nuclear is cheaper than renewables.

BARR: Well, the CSIRO says something different, it's hard to work this out.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: It's not for Australia.

JOYCE: When you listen to Labor Party modelling? Remember, these are the people that told us you're going to get $275 off your bill. Their modelling is rubbish. It's garbage. They just blurt it out.

BARR: I don't know who's modelling to believe, though. And you know what? I'm in the middle. The people are in the middle. It's really hard. Let's pick it up next week. Thank you. We'll see you then.