Sunrise interview with the Minister for the Environment and Water Tanya Plibersek

NATALIE BARR, HOST: Opposition Leader Peter Dutton is struggling to sell the Liberal Party message within his own party after the last remaining Liberal premier broke ranks with his federal counterparts by agreeing to support the Voice to Parliament. Tasmanian Premier Jeremy Rockliff will campaign for the yes side, in direct contrast to Dutton, who last week decided to vote against the referendum. It comes after the Liberals devastating byelection loss in Aston and the recent state election defeat in New South Wales. The latest national poll has 54 per cent of this nation backing the referendum, 38 per cent opposed. 

For their thoughts. Let's bring in Environment Minister Tanya Plibersek and Nationals MP Barnaby Joyce. Morning to both of you.

TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: Morning.

BARNABY JOYCE, NATIONALS MP: Good morning.

NATALIE BARR: Barnaby, a Liberal premier voting against Peter Dutton's position. Is that a good look for his leadership?

JOYCE: Well, Peter and myself and others and David are fighting this because we believe it's wrong. What Jeremy Rockliff should start off with answering is what are you going to do when you have a selected body, Jeremy, that is there in perpetuity because it's there by reason of the Constitution, that has connections to the highest levels of government, such as interest rates with the Reserve Bank Governor, with the chief of the Defence Force, with the head of the ABC and what they put on ABC to senior ministers. If they latently become part or partisan to, for instance, the Labor party and the Greens, and you can't have an election to remove them, how are you going to deal with that forevermore? How does that work no matter who changes the government, they say the same. Now that, for a politician, should ring some bells. 

And away from that, Jeremy would have to explain why he believes that people are born in Australia with different rights. I mean, if he said that overseas, people say, oh, you know, do you realise you have a racial clause in the Australian Constitution? They'd say, oh, no, that's the White Australia Policy. They got rid of it. They go, no no, true, they brought it back 2023, they brought back a racial clause.
BARR: Okay, Tanya, you're sitting there shaking your head, but a lot of Australians do have questions about this. How it's going to work on a day-to-day basis? Say it goes through, what the Voice group can influence, what they can say on everyday government decisions. I think that seems to be what people want answered first.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really fair thing to focus on. So, this constitutional referendum is about two very simple things. It's about acknowledging in our Constitution, the foundational document of our nation, that we don't have a couple of hundred years of history, we've got 65,000 years of history and culture here in Australia. We are unique in the world to have 65,000 years of continuous history and culture to learn on, and all Australians can be proud of that. 

Now, the Voice is about issues that affect Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians. We know that we've got a big gap in life expectancy, in health outcomes, in remote housing, in employment, in education. Does Barnaby really think that an Indigenous Voice to Parliament is going to be worrying about interfering in Defence policy when we've got a ten-year life expectancy gap? Now Barnaby is making up all of these frightening scenarios because he just wants to say no. Barnaby and Peter Dutton have been looking for an excuse to say no from the very beginning.

JOYCE: No, that’s not correct. You’re half right, and you’re half wrong. 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: This is not about what politicians want. This is what First Nations Australians have been asking for and offering for decades now to be listened to on matters that impact on their lives. We know when we've got Aboriginal health services that the health outcomes are better. 

JOYCE: You prescribe it to them.

 
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: We know if we got Aboriginal people involved in Justice that the outcomes are better.

JOYCE: You prescribe it to them.

 
BARR: Okay. We do need to improve that. I think everyone agrees we need to improve that.

 
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: This is what that is about. It's very simple.

BARR: Barnaby, just give us your main concerns.

JOYCE: Can I respond to some of that? First of all, the first part of what Tanya said, I agree with it. Indigenous Australians were here first, and they have a long and treasured part of what Australia is. The second part is not correct. First of all, if Ms Plibersek, Tanya doesn't want them involved in the Defence Force, then prescribe it. Make sure that they -

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: But the Parliament will be able to -

JOYCE: Make sure that they hang on, let me finish. You got to let me finish Tanya.

 
BARR: Tanya, let's just get him to do this.

JOYCE: You can't just jump in, Tanya, when you don't like what's being said. Right, and then prescribe it because you haven't they're not ruled out of what they can do. If it involves Australia, it involves them, and they can actually be involved with what happens with the Defence Force. They can actually be involved in discussions about interest rates, something that you can't, Tanya and I can't Tanya, we can't be involved in that. And this is why it's so important that you actually table Donaghue's advice. Don't tell us what you think he said or what you believe he said. Actually table Stephen Donaghue. He's an independent legal person's advice and show us the legislation for the Voice before people vote, not after.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: The Parliament will set the rules about the Voice, Barnaby that's in the question.

BARR: And the Prime Minister has said the -

 
JOYCE: But Tanya, subject to the Constitution. Subject to the Constitution. That's what it says in your own document.

 
BARR: Okay. The Solicitor General's advice will be released. The Prime Minister has said that. So that's one issue. But, Tanya, to Barnaby's point, which I think is a lot of Australians’ point, it's that second paragraph that the Voice will be able to look at executive government. So, if we buy subs, will the Voice get a say before we order the subs? If we raise the family payment -

 
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: So there’s two really important answer to that. I can give you an answer to that. Yes, there are two really important answers. It's about advice, so you don't have to listen to the advice and secondly, the third part of this proposition is that the Parliament will set the rules around the voice, how it's constituted, how big it is, how it's elected, what it's got a say over. The Parliament will set those rules. So, we'll be debating that in the Parliament and voting on that -

 
BARR: Before we go to the referendum?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, no, because there's no point in having the legislation if the referendum is lost.

BARR: Okay.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah.

BARNABY JOYCE: No shows. So sneaky, so sneaky.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: You're so negative, Barnaby. You just want to say no to everything.

JOYCE: You're so sneaky. Show us the leg. Be honest, be upfront, straight and shows the leg.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: You had ten years in government to do the details of this.

JOYCE: You're the government, you're the government, you're competent of writing legislation, shows the legislation before the Australian people vote. Otherwise, you're being sneaky and you got something to cover.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: There's plenty of detail out there. Barnaby, you are just wanting to say -

JOYCE: That is not the answer. That is not the answer, and you know it. That is not the answer.

BARR: We will leave it there. A lot more questions need to be answered, but a good fiery conversation to start the week. Thank you both. See you next week.