Interview with Kieran Gilbert, Sky News Newsday

KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: Joining me live in the studio is the Minister for Environment and Water, Murray Watt. Thanks for joining us. How much are you willing to compromise to get this through before the end of the year?

MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: Well, what I’ve always said, Kieran, is that what we want to produce is a balance set of reforms that delivers real gains for both the environment and business. That was the spirit of Graeme Samuel’s review. It wasn’t about one or the other, you could do both. And of course, in order to get this through, we may need to make adjustments to that legislation. But I’m not prepared to have a bill that doesn’t deliver both of those wins for the environment and for business. So if either the Coalition or the Greens wants to put forward some suggestions, we’re open to hearing them. And I really think it’s getting towards the time that both the Coalition and the Greens need to think about whether they’re prepared to stick by these current laws which are failing business and failing the environment, or will they get behind something that actually delivers for both. So they’ve got some pretty hard thinking to do over the next couple of weeks, I think.

KIERAN GILBERT: One of the things, they've got a handful of things that they're putting out there, one of them is that they want greater ministerial power over the head of the EPA when it's set up. Are you open to that?

MURRAY WATT: We're at a stage where I'm open to hearing different ideas from both the Coalition and the Greens. We're negotiating with both sides. We don't have a preferred partner when it comes to passing these reforms. You know, the Coalition might have certain requests, things like that. The Greens might have certain requests, and we're at the stage of listening to all of those options. So we're adamant that there needs to be a federal EPA because we have gone to two elections committing to do that, and we think it's an important watchdog to make sure that business is doing the right thing. But things like the structure of it, we're open to talking about that just as we're open to talking with the Greens about different issues as well.

KIERAN GILBERT: When you say you don't have a preferred partner, is it - well it would be the view of business, wouldn't it, the business community, they would prefer you to get a deal done with the Coalition, wouldn't they?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, absolutely. As you can imagine, business groups, by and large, would prefer a deal with the Coalition. Environment groups, by and large, would prefer a deal with the Greens. What I'm about is delivering a balanced set of reforms that doesn't tilt the balance too far one way in favour of business or the environment. There are these twin objectives. We know that the environment is going backwards, so we need stronger environmental protections, and business might not get everything they want in that regard. But equally, we know that the current processes for approvals are log jamming projects that business wants through. So the Greens need to think about that when they're thinking about the demands they're putting to us as well.

KIERAN GILBERT: But one of the lines in the sand for you is you won't have, under any circumstances, a climate trigger.

MURRAY WATT: That's right. I made that clear even before we'd introduced the legislation, Kieran. And really, that goes back to the recommendation from Graeme Samuel, which was that we are dealing with the emissions of different projects through policies like the Safeguard Mechanism, which requires our biggest emitting projects to reduce their emissions by 5 per cent every year, be net zero, there's that phrase, by 2050. And we think that is the appropriate place to manage those emissions rather than duplicating it in this legislation -

KIERAN GILBERT: Doesn't that knock off the Greens then as a possible part of this?

MURRAY WATT: That's up to the Greens, I guess. It's up to the Greens to decide whether that is so important to them that they're prepared to get in the way of legislation that will, in many other ways, improve the environment. The legislation provides for the first time things like national environmental standards that need to be met in project approvals, increased penalties against business if they do the wrong thing, restoring the environment through environmental offsets rather than seeing it go backwards. So there's a lot of good stuff in this bill for the environment, just as there is for business. Frankly, I think that both sides should get behind this, but it's really going to be up to them now.

KIERAN GILBERT: The ministerial override power, again, Graeme Samuel recommended that, but is this too broad the way you've drafted it in the sense that it could - again, we say energy groups and business groups would welcome this, environmentalists won't, but you could allow a gas project, for example, to be delivered even if there were environmental objections.

MURRAY WATT: Look, I think we haven't sort of said that any particular project couldn't get a national interest approval. What we have said, though, is that the minister should have a rarely used power to approve a project after it's gone through a full environmental assessment -

KIERAN GILBERT: If it is in the national interest.

MURRAY WATT: If it is in the national interest. And the legislation itself talks about things like defence and national security matters, national emergencies. They're more the kind of things that I think it would be used for. But -

KIERAN GILBERT: Energy security is a big issue.

MURRAY WATT: I mean, the reality is that the legislation as it's drafted does allow for a wide range of projects to be approved in those limited circumstances. I've seen the feedback over the last few days from different people about that, and we’ll obviously think about that. But as yet we haven't had any amendments provided to us by either side of politics. And I know the Coalition are a little bit busy on a few other things at the moment, but hopefully they'll be able to turn their mind to it because business wants to see these reforms done.

KIERAN GILBERT: And you want it done by the end of this year?

MURRAY WATT: We do. I mean, this has been rolling on for five years since Graeme Samuel presented his review to Sussan Ley when she was then the environment minister. But even broader than that, these laws have not been overhauled for 25 years since they were introduced. They're out of date, they're broken, they're failing the environment, they're failing for business and there's just no time for more delays. So we've got to get done.

KIERAN GILBERT: Does the buck stop with you on this? Obviously, you've got the Greens, the Coalition – the Coalition's got its challenges at the moment – but does it reflect on you if you can't get it done by Christmas?

MURRAY WATT: I'll leave it for very intelligent commentators like you, Kieran, to judge that kind of thing, but I've certainly put everything I've got into these reforms. I think I've now met with over 100 - had 100 different meetings with all sorts of stakeholders, the Coalition, the Greens, state governments. I've been very personally involved in those meetings and that's what makes me hopeful we can get there. I'm more about getting this done rather than worrying about not getting it done.

KIERAN GILBERT: Okay, on the net zero question, the Coalition is having a challenging time. Angus Taylor among those internally arguing that they've got to get rid of it. Sarah Henderson was sitting where you are in the last half hour arguing passionately that they need to dump that as a policy. With rising energy prices, do you see a scenario that if they do get their act together, they can put the heat, pardon the pun, on the government in these matters?

MURRAY WATT: Look, I think most Australians know that the quickest, cheapest way to get cheaper, cleaner energy is through more renewable power. Not by the nuclear power that the Coalition are still tantalised by, not with more coal-fired power, which the Nats seem to want to pursue. CSIRO and every other reputable expert has said that the cheapest, cleanest energy we can get in the future is through renewables.

KIERAN GILBERT: Does that stack up even in terms of the many billions on transmission lines, which seems to have been underestimated initially?

MURRAY WATT: Even if you include those sorts of costs, renewable power is the cheapest, let alone cleanest, source of power that we can have in the future. It didn't used to be in the past. That's why we pursued coal-fired power. In its day, it was the cheapest form of power. But things have changed. The technology has changed. So for the Coalition to be arguing against net zero and against renewables is actually arguing for higher power prices, not lower power prices. Now -

KIERAN GILBERT: So you're willing to - you're happy to have this fight on that matter? Because it looks like that's where this is headed.

MURRAY WATT: Absolutely. We will continue to back the CSIRO and every other reputable expert who demonstrates that the cheapest form of power we can get in the future is renewable. Now -

KIERAN GILBERT: But there are many difficulties here in terms of the social licence and so on.

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, absolutely.

KIERAN GILBERT: You've seen it. Community groups, many around the nation, not happy with the way that this is unfolding. It's a rocky transition. The onus is on the government, if you do believe that, to make sure that you get that transition right, isn't it?

MURRAY WATT: That's right. It’s not an easy task. We are talking about a big transformation of our energy network. But what we also know is that if we delay this even further, if we have a disorderly transition rather than a considered one, that will make it more expensive, so we’ve got that choice. This is the way the world is going towards cheaper renewable power. We can either do it in a measured way and keep prices down or do the opposite. Now, I might just pick up on the comments Angus Taylor is quoted as saying, that he’s now behind dumping net zero because he thinks that’s the way to keep the Coalition together. That is a perfect demonstration that the Coalition are more concerned about their political interests, keeping their Coalition together, than they are about the national interest.

KIERAN GILBERT: Murray Watt, thanks for your time.

MURRAY WATT: Thanks, Kieran.