Interview with Nadia Mitsopoulos - ABC Perth Mornings

NADIA MITSOPOULOS, HOST: Well, he is known as the fixer and as the new Environment Minister, Murray Watt has a lot to fix. He has to reboot the twice failed environmental laws which was put on hold until after the election. He has to keep miners and environmentalists happy, and then he has to decide whether Woodside can keep taking gas from the North West Shelf for another 45 years. So he's back in town on a bit of a listening tour if you like and he has found some time to join me in the studio. Minister, good morning, and thank you for coming in.

MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: G’day, Nadia. Great to be in the studio with you.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: So, let’s start with those environmental laws. Is a national environmental protection agency still on the cards?

MURRAY WATT: Yes, it is, Nadia. We’ve obviously now gone to two elections with that as part of our platform. For reasons you’ll remember, we weren’t able to get that legislation through before the election, but it remains our commitment to put in place a new federal EPA. Really what this comes down to is that everyone agrees that our current environmental laws and processes are broken. There was a review done under the former Coalition government – in fact, when Sussan Ley was the Environment Minister – which found that our current laws aren’t working for the environment and they’re not working for business, and having an independent EPA is an important part of fixing those problems.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: So what will it look like?

MURRAY WATT: Well, that’s exactly what I’m here to talk about with people and to listen to people about. Before the election when obviously put forward a bill to the Parliament that didn’t pass, which did put forward a particular model for how the EPA would work. Many people agreed with that. Some people didn’t agree with that. And what I’m doing in these meetings is meeting with a broad range of groups to hear from people about what kind of EPA they think it should – we should have, what sort of powers it should have and, of course, more broadly, how we can change our environmental laws to better protect the environment and give business certainty.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Because that’s the problem, right? Because is the ideal model that has a veto power over resource projects? Isn’t that – that’s the sticking point, right?

MURRAY WATT: That’s certainly been an issue, particularly for some of the mining business and business groups.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: That’s the main issue.

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, there have been other issues that they’ve raised with me in the meetings that I’ve had so far. And today I’ll be meeting with environmental organisations, First Nations groups, and I’m sure they’ll have some views for me as well. Certainly, that is a major issue for mining and industry groups. I don’t come into these discussions with fixed views on any of these issues. What I’m here to do is to listen to the different views and in the end put together the broadest possible support for reforms. I’m not here to say yes to some people and no to some people. In an ideal world, we can come up with a package that has broad support from the mining industry, business groups, environmental groups, First Nations groups. And I think that’s possible because the conversations I’ve had already in the role, whether it be here in Perth or on the phone, everyone agrees the current laws aren’t working. Everyone accepts that there’s going to need to be some give and take. No one is going to get every single thing that they want out of these reforms. We don’t live in utopia. But my job is to try to put together the broadest possible reforms.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Because the concern is, and I want to talk about this notion of give and take, but the concern is that you’re going to have bureaucrats in Canberra saying no to a resource project here in WA. So, as the Environment Minister, what is your priority? Is it the environmental benefits or is it the social or economic benefits of a project?

MURRAY WATT: Well, I firmly –

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Because your job is to look after the environment.

MURRAY WATT: It is. And, I mean, the way I see my role is, if you like, a dual role, to be the guardian of the environment and to oversee the regulation of our environmental laws when it comes to projects, but also part of my job is to help facilitate sustainable economic development going forwards. We know that WA in particular, relies very heavily on the mining and resources sector. And we do want to see projects go ahead but in a way that doesn’t irretrievably damage our environment.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: And that’s the thing, isn’t it? I mean –

MURRAY WATT: That’s the balancing act.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: You’ve got to think about that, but your priority has to be environmental factors.

MURRAY WATT: Well, the way I’d put is that what Federal Labor has shown is that we believe in both protecting the environment and protecting jobs. That’s the approach we took in our last term. That’s the approach we took to the election, and it would appear from the results that that’s the approach that Australians want to see the government take. And I think there was a real message in the last election that Western Australians and the whole Australian community rejected the sort of extreme left and right of politics who wants to say that you can only have jobs or the environment. What we’re about in Federal Labor as a centre left party is about protecting both jobs and the environment, and I firmly believe you can do that.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Murray Watt, the Federal Environment Minister, is my guest this morning at 22 to nine. Ultimately, though, whatever you decide, will the final say on an environmental approval for a project lie with you?

MURRAY WATT: Well, these are exactly the issues –

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Would you like it to?

MURRAY WATT: It’s a little early in the job to be sort of declaring my position on that, Nadia. I’ve been in the job eight days now, and I really want to make sure –

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: But this is not new to you.

MURRAY WATT: No, no, but these are some of the fundamental questions that we’ve got to resolve in designing these new laws. And I think it’s important that I take the time early in the role to listen to the different views. Even over these two days that I’m in Perth I’m going to hear different views on that. I’ll go away and have a think about that. I do have to speak to people on the east coast as well, being the Federal Minister, and I’ll be listening to them too. But, you know, we don’t need to solve this today. But I do think we need to solve it soon. These reforms to the laws have been coming for a long time. Everyone I speak to, no matter what side of the argument they’re from, wants to see change. They want to see change quickly. We have been given a mandate from the Australian people to get on with it, and so that’s my intention is to move as quickly as we can.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: And do you believe the Premier, and I’m sure he told you this, as did the mining companies and lobby groups that you met with yesterday, that, you know, ultimately, these environmental laws could cost jobs in WA? Do you really believe that?

MURRAY WATT: Well, I think if we don’t get the laws right that is a risk. And that’s the challenge: is to get the laws right in a way that they do protect our environment. And let’s not forget that whether it be Western Australia or anywhere else in the country there are so many jobs in industries that rely on a healthy environment, the tourism industry, our agriculture sector all rely on – and resource development - rely on a healthy environment. So, there’s really strong economic reasons to get environmental protection right as well. I just don’t think we need to have one or the other. I genuinely believe that you can come up with laws that balance the need to protect the environment and jobs.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Because one could argue – you talk about give and take and that not everyone’s going to get everything that they want. One could argue there is no give and take when it comes to the decline of the environment.

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, again, different people will have different views on those kind of things. I don’t think we can ignore the fact that our environment is in decline. Our natural environment is in decline, whether that be about the number of threatened species, the condition of our waterways. I think there’s a lot of people who have put in some great work to try to reverse that. And having really sound, robust environmental laws is a way of making sure that we not only stop the decline in our natural environment but actually rebuild it. Because I think that’s what Australians want to see.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: And do you agree with the original principle of these laws, and that was to shift decision-making from being a highly discretionary process to one focused on outcomes for the environment? Because it sounds to me like you’re going back to that discretionary approach?

MURRAY WATT: Again, I’m sorry to sound like a broken record –

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: No, no.

MURRAY WATT: It’s probably a little early for me to say, you know, that I’ve made a decision to go one way or the other.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: But it sounds like you’re heading towards a discretionary approach.

MURRAY WATT: Well, there’s always going to be a degree of discretion in a system where decisions are made by a minister or a departmental representative. Of course, that’s something that people have got to use their discretion based on the evidence and based on the science that they’re presented with. But, as I say, it’s a little too early for me to say it’s going to be a very discretionary model or a really prescriptive model. These are exactly the kind of things I’m asking people as I’m getting around the country.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Beyond the stakeholders, would there be any other consultation process with this new approach, whatever your approach will be?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, I’m certainly giving some thought to that, Nadia. You know, I recognise this is an area with really high public interest and, of course, there are lobby groups, whether they be miners, environmental groups, whoever, who have strong views on these and represent their members. But I know that the average member of the public cares about this kind of thing as well. So we’re giving some thought to what kind of consultation process we have. Again, I haven’t decided how that’s going to work, but I recognise there’s interest.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: And you’re probably not surprised that a lot of these questions are coming off the text line from people in regional WA, farmers in particular, who probably still hold a bit of a grudge towards you because you are getting rid of the live sheep trade. So –

MURRAY WATT: I’m happy to talk about that, if you like. I mean –

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Well, I mean, that ship has sailed, hasn’t it?

MURRAY WATT: I guess, I mean, we’ve now been to two elections and won two elections where this was a very clear part of our platform. And I recognise that there are many people in regional WA who are upset about this decision. They probably voted accordingly at the election. But we have been returned with a clear agenda. We actually increased the number of seats we won in WA. So I’m not going to pretend that it’s because of our live sheep policy, but it doesn’t seem to have really hurt us because I think most WA people either support the phase-out of this trade or there were other issues that were of more concern to them.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Although farmers will argue it will hurt them and it will decimate their businesses.

MURRAY WATT: I understand that’s how they feel, and I had many meetings with sheep farmers and their representatives in making those decisions. But I’d also point out that Western Australian taxpayers and taxpayers from across the country are going to be putting in $140 million of their funds to help these farmers transition. That’s not a small amount of money that everyone is chipping in to move towards more onshore processing of sheep meat, which creates more jobs here in WA, creates more export dollars. It’s what we’ve seen in other parts of the country where the trade has moved towards onshore processing. That’s where the world market is going towards. And I’m confident we can have that happen here as well.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: I mean, the concern is – and I do need to get back to the environment – that we don’t have the processing capacity here, so, I guess, we need to wait and see whether it will actually happen.

MURRAY WATT: And that’s exactly what some of the money that we’ve put on the table is for, is to boost that processing capacity. I remember the discussions I was having with meat processors in WA when I was in the agriculture role. Their view was that we probably did have the abattoir space to be able to do that extra processing, but there were certainly issues about getting the workers. There were issues about refrigeration once meat is processed. And that’s exactly what that money is designed to assist.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: It’s 16 to nine. You’re listening to Murray Watt, who is now the federal Environment Minister, not the Agriculture Minister, which is why he’s here. Let’s go back to the environment, because you still have to make a decision, and you’ve said you’ll do it by the end of the month, on whether Woodside can continue operating its gas plant at the North West Shelf for another 45 years. Do you have all the information you need to make that decision?

MURRAY WATT: I believe that I do, Nadia. My department has now finalised a brief to me with a recommendation that I’ll be going through in the next few days. It’s obviously a really complex project and a really complex decision and it’s not one I’m going to make, you know, in the space of 20 minutes. So I’m going to be giving that some thought in coming days. I’m a bit limited in terms of what I can say about it because I am in the middle of a decision‑making process and whatever I say on radio might be the basis of a legal appeal. But I understand the significance of this decision for WA. I understand there are really strong views about it on both sides of the debate. And one thing I can guarantee you is that whatever decision I make, there’ll be lots of people unhappy on either side of the debate, but that’s just the nature of the job.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Okay. So if you’ve got all of the information you need, can we assume that you’ve read a monitoring report on the rock art up there that people have been waiting a year to see?

MURRAY WATT: This is the Western Australian Government report?

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Correct, yes.

MURRAY WATT: My understanding, and, as I say, I haven’t gone through this brief yet, but my understanding is that the Western Australian Government has provided that report to the department. It’s a matter for the Western Australian Government what they decide in terms of releasing that report publicly –

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: But you need to take those findings into account?

MURRAY WATT: I will be considering that in my decision.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: So, you personally haven’t seen it yet?

MURRAY WATT: Not at this point because I’ve only just received the brief from the department about the decision. So I have not yet gone through any of the material for this decision. But that’s what I’m going to be doing a lot of in the next few days.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: And would you consider that to be a key piece of information?

MURRAY WATT: Look, again, it’s probably best that I not sort of express a view about the importance of one piece of information or other. Again, I’m just really conscious that I’ve got to be careful what I say when we’re in the middle of a decision-making process.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: The transition period then to renewables, I mean, realistically, we know, you know, when we’ve been told gas – we need gas for a while yet, we just can’t turn the tap off and go completely renewable. But what are your thoughts on a transition period, an acceptable transition period, to move, you know, from fossil fuels to renewables? Is it 10 years, 20 years, 50 years or maybe never?

MURRAY WATT: You would be aware that my colleague, the Western Australian-based Minister, Madeleine King, in her resources role has issued on behalf of the government a future gas strategy. We did that in our last term. And we recognised that we are going to need gas as part of our energy supplies for some time to come. I wouldn’t necessarily put a particular time frame on that, but we’re not talking about the next five years. You know, the transition towards a renewable-based economy is going to take time. We’re making really good progress towards it with more wind supplies, solar supplies and others. But we can’t just move to that straight away. And we will need gas supplies to back up that renewable energy for some time to come.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Or possibly forever?

MURRAY WATT: Look, I couldn’t sort of speculate about –

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: But there is concern about, you know, the global sort of state of renewables and a lot of things that were feasible are no longer feasible and high costs. There is a thought now that maybe people need to be rethinking how we tackle this.

MURRAY WATT: Look, I think people are thinking about this really closely every day about how we can move our energy supplies to more renewable systems and have less reliance on fossil fuels. Clearly, that’s the direction we need to be going in. But it doesn’t mean phasing out fossil fuels straight away. I mean, I know here in WA, the Western Australian Government is in the process of phasing out coal-fired power. We’re seeing a move away from coal-fired power in other parts of the world, which is leading to reductions in emissions as they move towards gas being a lower emissions fuel. So, you know, there’s obviously a lot of manufacturing outfits in Australia that rely on gas for their production as well. So, unfortunately for those who say that we can move straight away to phasing out oil and gas, it's just not possible because we do need to keep the lights on, we do need to have energy produced, but we are firmly committed towards moving towards more renewable power.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: I’ll leave it there. I appreciate your time.

MURRAY WATT: Thanks, Nadia.

NADIA MITSOPOULOS: Thank you very much. Murray Watt there. He is the Federal Environment Minister.