Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC Afternoon Briefing

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: The Environment Minister Murray Watt joins me now. Welcome.

MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: G’day, Patricia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I want to start, if we can, on the Pauline Hanson issue because you are in the Senate, and we will move to your Bill. You are a Senator. Does the seven-day suspension of Pauline Hanson risk making her a martyr?

MURRAY WATT: There’s no doubt that Pauline Hanson, a lot of activities are motivated by her desire for publicity. But equally, when someone behaves in that kind of matter, so disrespectful, not just to the Parliament, but to the community, some sort of action has to be taken. I don’t think we can turn a blind eye to that kind of behaviour. That's a reasonably serious punishment in Senate terms, and I think that was appropriate in the circumstances. We've got to take a stand against the behaviour and that sort of attitude to other Australians.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. But you do agree that it has created more publicity actually?

MURRAY WATT: I acknowledge that she will milk it; that's what she does. She is a person who has no influence whatsoever on policy or the daily lives of Australians and she’s got to try and secure relevance through stunts that achieve nothing – that's the way she’s always been.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: 2017 she wore a burqa as well; there was no seven-day suspension because it hasn’t happened for decades. Should there have been? Is that the sort of response that should have been handed then?

MURRAY WATT: I was in the Senate at the time and remember that and I don't recall what efforts were made at the time to deal with that. But I certainly think that these sorts of punishments are the right way to respond to that kind of behaviour. It's a rare thing for a Senator to be suspended – it takes a lot for that to occur. But that kind of attention-seeking behaviour that humiliates other Australians, I think we’ve all got to take a stand against.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Let’s talk about your negotiations on your laws. Is the Prime Minister now involved?

MURRAY WATT: Well, I’ve certainly been talking with the Prime Minister throughout this process over a number of months.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But I mean in a more active way. Because Sussan Ley says she wants to meet with him. Are they going to meet, do a deal?

MURRAY WATT: Look, that’s up to the Prime Minister to determine who he meets with and when. You might’ve seen he’s got a pretty bad head cold at the moment –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Yes, I have.

MURRAY WATT: Which is limiting his behaviour, his activities.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: We’re all frightened of the germs, that’s right.

MURRAY WATT: Indeed. But despite that, I’ve met with him again today as I did yesterday to –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Did you wear a mask?

MURRAY WATT: I didn’t, but made sure I was a good metre away. Obviously, part of my role here is to keep the Cabinet informed, keep our Caucus informed about the sort of changes we are considering and seek approval. He’s been comfortable with the kind of offers that I’ve made to both the Coalition and the Greens. And when he decides it’s time for him to get involved, he will. I have no doubt that before this is all sealed the Prime Minister will meet with the different leaders, but it's up to him to decide when he does that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. That’ll unfold in the next couple of days. What further concessions are you prepared to offer the Coalition? Because Sussan Ley says you have not done a good job negotiating.

MURRAY WATT: [Laughs] Sorry, that’s the second time I've been asked that on air today, and both times I've laughed. I mean, I don't think anyone takes criticism from Sussan Ley seriously about how she conducts or how people should conduct their affairs. We've engaged in good faith with both the Coalition and Greens throughout the process. I have lost count now of the number of meetings I've had, not just with Angie Bell from the Coalition – the Shadow – but you may have heard me say I’ve had multiple Coalition frontbenchers come and meet with me about this. Which actually has been quite difficult to then work out who is the actual negotiator and what is their position.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Have you worked it out?

MURRAY WATT: Well, currently I’m told it’s Jonathon Duniam, given it’s in the Senate. But as I say, there have been multiple different frontbenchers from the Coalition over the last few weeks meet with me, purporting to represent their position. So, you know, I think before Sussan Ley starts criticising other people about how they've managed this, she might want to get her own house in order and get clear on what they want. Because each time I have a meeting with each of these people they say they’ve got their final list of demands, and then we meet with someone else, and they’ve got other demands.

But, you know, we’ve worked through that and, as I say, we've engaged in good faith with both the Coalition and the Greens. I've had further discussions with both of them today. We'll keep working and talking these through as long as we need to do.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And are you going to insist on the emissions reporting being part of it? Because that's one of their big contingency issues.

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, we do think that is an important requirement in the legislation, it’s something that Graeme Samuel recommended.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Yeah, but it’s in other legislation, right? And it’s not enforceable, so why?

MURRAY WATT: Well, partly because we have tried to deliver a set of reforms that is very faithful to the recommendations of what Graeme Samuel put forward. And also, we understand that there are people in the community who wanted to see a climate trigger. We've said no to that kind of thing. This is an acknowledgement of these issues mattering to Australian people. So, that is something that we are holding the line on, just as we are around having a strong independent EPA. So there's obviously a number of issues that the Coalition –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, no ministerial sort of supremacy with – that matters a lot to them that you're not going to consider?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, well, we've already said that the minister of the day will continue to have the power to approve or reject projects. That's actually something supported by the Greens as well. And so, we're holding the line on that. And we accept that a bureaucratic agency like an EPA should have some level of direction by a minister, but equally, you don't want ministers dictating to them, for example, who can be fined, who can be prosecuted. So having some degree of independence does matter. So, but as I say, we'll keep working this through. I want to repeat, we are going to pass these laws this week.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. I'm going to challenge you on this.

MURRAY WATT: Sure.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Because you don't have the numbers and the kind of – isn't that a bit arrogant? I'm going to say it.

MURRAY WATT: I don't think it's arrogant.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, you don't have the numbers, so how are you so sure? You've got to convince people and you haven't.

MURRAY WATT: Well, it's only Tuesday, Patricia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Yeah, it is.

MURRAY WATT: We've got two full days, which we're prepared to sit until the wee hours if we need to on each of those days. We're prepared to sit Friday if we need to, to get this done. These reforms have been waiting for five years. It's five years since Graeme Samuel handed down his blueprint. The act of Parliament we were talking about is 25 years old. It is hopelessly out of date and broken. It's got to be fixed now. We can keep talking about this for years, or we can actually work together to pass these reforms this week.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. Jim Chalmers told me last week he prefers a deal with the party of government, the Coalition. Do you feel the same way?

MURRAY WATT: I've said previously that there are some advantages to passing the reforms with the Coalition for that reason.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Do you still feel that way?

MURRAY WATT: But I've also said that we are open to passing the reforms with either the Coalition or the Greens. I mean, we're not going to put all of the bargaining power in the Coalition's hands if they continue to be unrealistic about what they are asking for, and if they continue to struggle to work out what they actually want, then of course, we've got another option to go with the Greens. But there are advantages, of course, in going with the Coalition from that perspective.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But also, in terms of your vision for our environment, the Coalition road or the Greens road, it strikes me that that's quite a different road. So what's your vision for the way you want the laws? Because it sounds like you're just happy to do any deal.

MURRAY WATT: No, no. If we were happy to do any deal, we would have done a deal by now. And we haven't been prepared to accept the terms that both the Coalition and the Greens are asking for, and that's because what I've said all through this process is that we need to deliver a balanced set of reforms that delivers very real wins for the environment and for business. And our view is that currently, the kind of amendments that both the Coalition and the Greens are seeking wouldn't end up delivering that beneficial outcome for both the environment and business. So if we can get them to come back towards the sort of package that we got through the House of Representatives that does deliver that dual benefit, that's when we can look at passing these reforms.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Specific question in relation to the Greens. They think this three-year transition on native forests is too long. Are you prepared to offer a short timeframe – shorter timeframe?

MURRAY WATT: So I might just also make the point, and I know you weren't necessarily saying this, but we're not talking about shutting down native forestry altogether. But what we are talking about, as Graeme Samuel recommended, was applying the new national environmental standards to native forestry, particularly in Tasmania and New South Wales. We have said three years. The Greens want it to be a lot shorter than that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Is there a halfway point?

MURRAY WATT: We are open to some change there, but we're not going to be making it so quick that this ends up being a really disorderly process. Equally, and I've made this point to the Greens today, when you talk about applying the new national environmental standards to native forestry, we haven't created those new standards yet. I can't create new national environmental standards until this bill is passed because it gives me the power to make the standards. So, if I agree now to do it within six months, we haven't even got standards ready to go because it's relying on the bill.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I understand that concept. Could you do it in a year?

MURRAY WATT: I'm not going to get into a precise figure yet. We're talking about those issues but –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Do you concede that three years might be too long?

MURRAY WATT: I wouldn't put it that way, but I concede that we are talking with the Greens about what would be a reasonable period of time. At the moment, we don't agree on that. They want it shorter than what we think is reasonable and possible, but that is one of the items that we're still talking about.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And they’ve asked for six months?

MURRAY WATT: I'll leave it for them to say what their position is.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. I tried.

MURRAY WATT: You did.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Thank you for coming in, Minister.

MURRAY WATT: Good to see you, PK.