Interview with Paul Culliver, ABC Radio Newcastle

PAUL CULLIVER, HOST: All right, this has been much touted, even from the previous term of parliament - reform to the EPBC Act. Basically, how our environmental laws work with getting not just coal and gas, but also renewable and other big projects up and running, but making sure they are fit for purpose. The news this morning, as you may have heard, a climate trigger will not be included. The idea that its impact, any single project's impact on climate change should be considered as part of that approval process. We heard from the Greens environment spokesperson, Sarah Hanson-Young, earlier this morning. I was asking her about the prospect that the Greens could still negotiate, given a climate trigger is off the table.

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PAUL CULLIVER: All right. Australia's Environment Minister is Murray Watt and joins you on the line. Minister, good morning.

MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: G’day, Paul. Good to be with you.

PAUL CULLIVER: Why shouldn't new coal and gas projects consider the impact of climate change?

MURRAY WATT: Because those projects are already regulated by the government under our Safeguard Mechanism, among other climate-related policies. Any new coal mine or gas project in Australia that is going to be emitting large amounts is required under our laws to reduce their emissions by 5 percent every year and be net zero by 2050.

If you look back to the report that Graeme Samuel tabled five years ago recommending reforms to these laws, we have adopted his recommendation. He explicitly rejected the idea of a climate trigger, which is being advocated by the Greens, and what he recommended is that proponents of new projects should be required to disclose their emissions, provide a plan for how they're going to reduce those emissions. And we've also included a requirement in the bill that those proponents need to explain how their plans to reduce their emissions are consistent with government laws and policies such as the Safeguard Mechanism.

So one of the aims of this legislation, as you may know, is to reduce the level of duplication we currently see between state and commonwealth government processes. It doesn't make a lot of sense to duplicate requirements that exist under other government laws, such as the Safeguard Mechanism, here. But we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the change that we're making around disclosure and requiring these plans to reduce emissions, it's the first time in our national environmental laws that such a requirement will apply.

So I'm not really surprised at this point in time to hear the Greens criticising the bill. We've also seen mining companies in the media today criticising the bill. Some might say that if both mining companies and the Greens Party are both saying that they want changes to the bill, we might be in the right spot. And what I've always said with these reforms is that no one is going to get everything they want. We're not going to be delivering a bill that only delivers for business without considering environmental needs. And we're not going to be delivering a bill that delivers for the environment and stops housing, renewable energy and other development from occurring as well. So what we're trying to do is come up with a balanced package that includes very strong gains for the environment. And there are many included in here, beyond the emissions requirement. There's requirements to deliver a net gain for the environment when projects are being proposed. We're going to be significantly increasing the penalties against those who do the wrong thing by the environment. We're defining what sort of projects would be unacceptable when it comes to the environment. So for the Greens to be saying that this bill doesn't deliver for the environment is just the sort of political rhetoric that you'd expect from them. It's not based in reality because this bill delivers for the environment, it delivers for business, and that's why both the Greens and the Coalition should support it.

PAUL CULLIVER: All right, the decision-making powers will remain with the minister. So you, Murray Watt, as Environment Minister or future environment ministers, will still be able to approve coal and gas projects that make climate change worse?

MURRAY WATT: Well, we haven't settled that point yet, Paul. I know that's been reported in the media, but there are a few details around this bill that we are still working through and consulting stakeholders and finalising the drafting. I might point out that in reports in the media last week, Sarah Hanson-Young on behalf of the Greens said that she thought the minister of the day should retain the power to approve projects as well, so it would seem that there is support for that idea across the parliament.

But when it comes to creating a federal EPA and who has what powers, this is another really important reform that we're putting forward. Is that for the first time, Australia would have a national EPA, a strong watchdog with real teeth to make sure that business is doing the right thing. They would have a high degree of independence, especially around the activities they take to prosecute those who do the wrong things. They'd be independent when it comes to vetting and approving state arrangements that would be used to assess and approve projects. But the final details around decision-making power, we still have not yet settled. But as I say, even the Greens have supported that.

PAUL CULLIVER: All right. That aside, though, the other part of that question, is it true, though, that new coal and gas projects will be able to be approved in Australia that make climate change worse?

MURRAY WATT: Well any project, whether it be coal, gas, smelters, housing development, will need to get environmental approvals under the new laws. If a particular project can demonstrate that they won't have a significant impact on one of nine defined matters of national environmental significance, then it would get approval. That might be subject to conditions. You will have seen recently I approved an extension of an existing gas plant in Western Australia, subject to dozens of conditions, including requirements to reduce various emissions by 60 percent by 2030. So we will always make sure that when we're considering projects, the environmental impacts are taken into account and are reduced. So any project will be considered on its merits.

PAUL CULLIVER: Okay, but they still might make climate change worse?

MURRAY WATT: Well, I mean, I think it's understood that the burning of fossil fuels contributes climate change. I think that is a scientific fact. However, what our Government is doing is massively reducing our emissions as a country. We recently increased our targets to being much more ambitious than like-minded countries across the world. We're moving very fast towards phasing out some of our own fossil fuel power and moving towards renewables. So the way the world has decided to deal with climate change is through international agreements like the Paris Agreement, which we've signed up to. That requires us to reduce our emissions, and it requires every other country to reduce their emissions as well. So what we're doing is, as I say, transitioning towards renewable power. We're bringing in new emission standards for vehicles to reduce the emissions from new cars. We're taking steps in the agriculture sector. We're undertaking a range of different things to reduce our emissions, and it's up to every country who has signed up to that agreement to do the same thing.

PAUL CULLIVER: You're hearing from Murray Watt, the Minister for the Environment, this morning talking through the formal exclusion of a climate trigger from reformed environment laws that will attempt to be passed through parliament in coming weeks. Minister, can I talk about the other aspect of this, which is the approval of renewable energy projects? Obviously, many of them touted for the Hunter. What you hope to seek in terms of these reforms to get an effective approach to getting these renewable energy projects approved where there is social licence, where there is the right amount of assessment for environmental impact, but where they can actually get to go ahead?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, well, this is the balancing act we're trying to strike, Paul, is to make sure that our national environmental law does deliver improvements for our environment, which is under enormous pressure, but at the same time also makes it easier to build the kind of projects, whether it be renewables, housing and other things that we desperately need as a nation. In essence, what we're trying to do here is to reduce the level of duplication that currently exists between state and federal government processes. Typically what happens when you're talking about a windfarm, or a big solar farm or something else like that, is that it needs to get assessed and approved by a state government and then assessed and approved by a federal government, and that's why that combination of processes often means that these projects can take many years to be approved.

What we're trying to do is work with states – and New South Wales has been really good on this front, I must say – we're trying to work with states to reach agreements where they can do the assessment, not just for their own processes but for ours as well. So if we can compress the assessment down to one level of government doing it - subject to our strong national environmental standards to make sure that our obligations are met - then that can really speed up the delivery of those renewable projects. The problem we've got at the moment, and Graeme Samuel identified this in his report, is that the current processes are holding projects back, projects that we need, and they're not delivering any environmental benefit in the meantime. So we want to make sure that we are having strong environmental safeguards for these processes, that there is community consultation, because that's important. But also, we need these projects to start happening rather than getting just tied down in endless red tape.

PAUL CULLIVER: All right. What's your path forward in the Senate?

MURRAY WATT: Well, that remains to be seen, Paul. I know it's widely reported that we're only interested in doing a deal with the Coalition, but I've actually had the same number of discussions with the Coalition spokesperson as I have with the Greens spokesperson. And I've said to both of them, we are open to working with either of them to pass these laws. What we don't want to see is a repeat of what we saw before the election, where too often the Coalition and the Greens teamed up to block legislation that we were putting forward, whether it be the environmental reforms, the housing packages. Too often we saw those two parties team up to block things from going forward. These reforms are too important to be politicised in the way that some might like to do.

The consultation has been going on for five years. It is high time that we got these reforms passed. And I would hope that both the Coalition and the Greens can just put the politics aside, have a good look at the bill and see that it contains really important improvements for the environment and important improvements for business. So I think both of them should get behind it.

PAUL CULLIVER: Senator, can I ask you this on an entirely different topic? We are still speculating over what Barnaby Joyce wants to do after being the Member for New England. Would you welcome him as a Senate colleague? You've never had the opportunity of being in the Senate chamber at the same time as Barnaby Joyce. Would you welcome him across the aisle?

MURRAY WATT: No, you're right, Paul. Barnaby obviously was in the Senate before he jumped ship and jumped state to enter the House of Representatives, but that was before I got there. Look, I can't keep track with the soap opera that goes on day by day in the Coalition. I see even Pauline Hanson is now out saying actually he's never going to be the leader. So I don't know, who knows what's happened. Our Government is really just focusing on making sure we're delivering for Australians. The Coalition seem to be only focused on themselves. We're just going to get on with the job in making sure that Australians have the jobs, the wages, the housing, the environment that they need, and we'll leave the circus to the others.

PAUL CULLIVER: Minister, thanks for your time today.

MURRAY WATT: Thanks, Paul.