Interview with Steve Cannane, ABC Radio National Breakfast

STEVE CANNANE, HOST: Western Australia's Murujuga Cultural Landscape is older than the Pyramids of Giza and Stonehenge, and now the area of ancient rock art has officially been given World Heritage status. The decision over the weekend in Paris follows decades of campaigning from Indigenous groups and comes as the Government awaits a response to its provisional approval for Woodside's nearby gas project to be extended until 2070. Whether or not the sacred site and the gas industry can co-exist is now being questioned.

Fresh from attending the event in Paris and joining me now is Murray Watt, the Minister for the Environment and Water. Welcome back to Radio National Breakfast.

MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: G'day Steve, good to be with you.

STEVE CANNANE: First up I just want to bring you to what the ABC's been reporting today. They've published a report detailing how Treasury advised Government, and after the election that its $1.2 million homes target won't be met, also that higher taxes and spending cuts will be needed to achieve budget sustainability. The information was only uncovered through a table of contents accidentally being included in Treasury's response to an FOI request. Do Australian's deserve greater transparency on important matters around the Budget and housing like this?

MURRAY WATT: Well I think our Government, Steve, has a pretty good record when it comes to transparency with the public, but I think there's also got to be room in the way public administration runs for departments to be able to provide confidential advice to Ministers. It's one of the reasons we also have rules around Cabinet discussions being secret, because you do want to foster an environment where frank and fearless advice can be put to government by public servants and then those matters can be discussed confidentially by ministers. So look, it's not unusual for Departments to give advice to incoming ministers. I obviously received incoming government briefs myself when I moved to a new portfolio. And look more broadly, we’ve always said we need to do more to achieve our housing goals and make our economy more productive. So that will take into account that advice along with a range of other advice that we receive.

STEVE CANNANE: This is such a key policy that means so much to so many people's lives - getting into the housing market. If the advice is you're not going to meet that target, why not come clean on this?

MURRAY WATT: Well, that's obviously the view of the Treasury if that's what they've said in those papers, I of course haven't seen them myself. But you will have seen that we've taken a lot of steps already to ensure that we can meet that housing goal. We recognise that it's ambitious but it's certainly our intention to meet it. That's why we are increasing funding for skills and training in these industries. It's why I've been discussing issues like the approvals process with Minister Clare O'Neil to see what we can do to streamline those approvals.

STEVE CANNANE: OK.

MURRAY WATT: So, as I say, we recognise it's ambitious but it's fully our intent to achieve that goal.

STEVE CANNANE: Let's move on to the Murujuga rock art in WA. You are still waiting for Woodside to get back to you before you make your final decision on the project. Could the granting of World Heritage status to the site in Paris on the weekend impact your final decision?

MURRAY WATT: No, it won't apply to any decisions that are currently under way or that have happened previously, Steve. But what's important about this decision is that any future industrial development in that precinct would need to comply with the rules surrounding World Heritage nominations.

This is a really special moment to have Murujuga listed for World Heritage. It's obviously important for the Traditional Owners who have been campaigning for this for more than 20 years. But it's important for Australians and the world to see that site recognised and given extra protection in terms of any future inappropriate development that maybe proposed. As you have seen, when I made my proposed decision for the Northwest Shelf extension, I said that we would be applying strict conditions and preservation of the rock art was central to my decision when I made that a few weeks ago. But I guess this is also a way of keeping future governments and future industry honest to make sure that it does have this extra layer of protection against any inappropriate development in the future, and that's a good thing.

STEVE CANNANE: We have seen reports though, one done by Professor Benjamin Smith and Professor John Black, they released a joint report that showed the rocks at Murujuga had been degraded already by air pollutants released by industry and that they'd become more porous and that both forms of damage put the survival of the petroglyphs at risk. It's very hard, isn't it, to guarantee if industry is in that area that those pollutants won't damage that World Heritage listed rock art?

MURRAY WATT: Well, I think one of the things that was very persuasive for the World Heritage Committee in approving World Heritage listing was the comprehensive study that had been undertaken by scientists, both in Western Australia and elsewhere, that demonstrated first of all that the industrial activity occurring is not causing acid rain in the way that some environmental campaigners were claiming. It also proved that industry can co-exist with this rock art, and in fact the lead scientist for that work I think has been on your program previously talking about that.

So we recognise that there have been some opponents of this listing. It's very disappointing that that occurred given that they were going against the explicit wishes of Traditional Owners who wanted to see this listing happen. But the science was clear that industry can co-exist with the rock art. The science has acknowledged that some past industrial development, in particular a power station that doesn't operate there, may well have had some impact, but in fact what the science shows is that the air quality in that precinct is actually better than what we see in capital cities in Australia at the moment and that it can be preserved for the future.

STEVE CANNANE: It's 20 to 8 on Radio National Breakfast, we're talking to Murray Watt, the Minister for the Environment and Water. At that same meeting in Paris the World Heritage Committee ordered a full review into Australia's management of the Great Barrier Reef in 2026. If progress is deemed inadequate the Reef could be recommended for being on the World Heritage danger list. What measures are you taking to make sure it's not on the danger list?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, just to clarify one thing, Steve, the decision effectively confirmed a previous decision from the World Heritage Committee to request a state of conservation report. That was actually requested at last year's World Heritage Committee, so there's nothing new in that decision that's occurred this year.

But look, we recognise that the Great Barrier Reef, along with all coral reefs in the world, is under pressure, particularly from climate change. There’s other factors that have been impacting on the Great Barrier Reef as well, such as run off and water quality. And that's exactly why we've been investing hundreds of millions of dollars to increase water quality, to make sure that the fishing industry operating around the Reef is more sustainable, to build the resilience of the Reef. But look, we acknowledge that there's still more to be done there. I think all Australians and the whole world have got an interest in preserving the Great Barrier Reef forever and that's absolutely the intent of our Government.

STEVE CANNANE: The Australian Marine Conservation Society says while there has been some progress made in protecting the Reef, Australia still does not have a clear pathway to meet water quality targets and that the 2025 targets will be missed and pushed back to 2030. Will you commit to a fully funded plan to meet the revised targets by the end of the decade?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, well I respectfully disagree with the Marine Conservation Society, and you would expect that they would be calling for more action given the nature of an organisation that they are, and that's fine. But we do have a very clear water quality plan in place. It is due to be updated this year, and you can expect that it will have some very strong measures in there. But again, all up we're investing over $400 million in water quality so I don't think that anyone can say that we're turning a blind eye to that.

But again, I acknowledge that there's more to be done there. We want to preserve the Great Barrier Reef, it is under pressure, particularly from climate change. We need to do more and it's exactly why the world needs to meet its emissions targets as well.

STEVE CANNANE: Last week on Radio National Breakfast we heard about the devastating impact that the South Australia's toxic algal bloom was having on local fishers. We heard from Acting Premier Susan Close who told the program she will be coming to you for assistance in the recovery phase. What will you be doing to help people in South Australia with that awful environmental disaster?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, it's horrible to see what's going on, on the coastline of South Australia at the moment as a result of this algal bloom, Steve, and we recognise that it's also having an impact on industries that rely on that part of the world as well. I've spoken a number of times now to the South Australian Minister Susan Close about this, and I think again she acknowledged on her program that because the algal bloom is currently within State waters it's primarily the responsibility of the South Australian Government to deal with it. But she has mentioned that she will be coming to us with a request around recovery and resilience matters. They haven't yet defined exactly what that will look like, and of course we'll consider that when we receive their request.

STEVE CANNANE: I just want to bring you to another issue and that is Australia's Special Envoy Jillian Segal and her plan to combat antisemitism which was released last week. It endorses the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's working definition of antisemitism, and this morning I've spoken with the lead drafter of that definition, Kenneth Stern, who we'll hear from in a moment. He says the definition has been weaponised, that it restricts free speech and is counterproductive in combatting antisemitism. In writing a report like that, should Jillian Segal have consulted with experts like Kenneth Stern who have different views to her?

MURRAY WATT: Oh look, I'll leave it for Miss Segal to explain the basis of her recommendations. I don't think that anyone can reject her expertise in these matters. I've had a bit of a look at that definition myself and what it really comes down is the promotion of hatred of Jewish people, something that I would think we would all stand against.

I've noticed the Prime Minister has made the point while he's been travelling in China that, you know, it's not about restricting people's views, opportunity to express a view about, for example, the policies of the Netanyahu Government. We see protests against the Netanyahu Government in Israel. So of course, people have a right to express their views about political matters. But I don't think any Australian thinks that it's right to express hatred of the Jewish people, which is really what this definition is about.

STEVE CANNANE: Murray Watt, thanks for your time this morning.

MURRAY WATT: Thanks Steve.