Interview with Greg Jennett, ABC Afternoon Briefing

GREG JENNETT: Let’s introduce today’s political panel now, and we’re pleased to say joining us from Perth, these days as an Assistant Minister, Labor MP Josh Wilson, good to see you, Josh. And from Queensland, National Senator Matt Canavan is back with us. Same to you, Matt. Welcome both. Quick one on budget, first of all, and I’ll go to you, Josh. A $15 billion surplus. I think we’re going to have to say this is as good as it gets now for the Albanese Government with deficits all the way ahead from here, and I will suggest some pretty hard decisions that come with those.

JOSH WILSON: Thanks, Greg and hi, Matt. Significantly smaller deficits in the future than were booked under the previous government, but it’s very welcome that we have consecutive budget surpluses – the first two together for nearly 20 years. We haven’t put that together for the sort of statistical niceness of it. We’ve done it because of the difference it makes to Australians, to the Australian community. It’s helped take the pressure off inflation. We inherited inflation with a six in front of it. It now has a three in front of it. Both headline and core inflation came down in the most recent measure, and that’s really what our focused and responsible budget management is all about, taking that pressure off households while we still find the capacity to support them directly with cost-of-living measures.

JENNETT: All right, Matt Canavan, we hear a lot from your side, mainly from Angus Taylor and from Jane Hume, about the need to rein in spending. Does that suggest that, on these numbers, a Coalition government would be capable of maintaining surpluses on the numbers projected in the current budget anyway?

MATT CANAVAN: Well, the Coalition has announced a lot of savings, nearly $100 billion worth that we think could be cut from Labor’s excessive spending that has fuelled the highest inflation rate in the world. What Josh left out there, and I’ll congratulate Josh. I don’t get to see him around committees anymore, he’s on a higher plane, but congratulations on your promotion. But what Josh left out there was that inflation rate of three in front of it. In fact, it’s 3.8 so pretty close to four, if you round up. That is the highest inflation rate in the developed world. So, the question has to be asked, “why is inflation persisting so high here?”, when it’s come down to much, much lower levels in the US and in Europe. The reason is that the Labor Party have massively increased spending through their policy decisions in their first two budgets. In fact, when you look at the policy decisions that have increased spending, it’s the largest we’ve seen outside of COVID, since the days of Kevin Rudd and the Global Financial Crisis, the worst type of medicine for the high inflationary environment. We’ve got today’s figures, which show a higher surplus, are almost all due to lower payments to states and territories for things like roads. That’s the sort of spending I’d like to see. If you come up and look at some of our roads here in North Queensland, we could do with a bit more money spent there. So, it’s not really to any kind of discipline from this government. They have fuelled this inflation fire, and that’s why we’ve got the highest rate in the world, in the developed world I should say.

JENNETT: Now, there is more we could say. I’ll give you a quick comeback on that, Josh, before we move on to many other topics, if we can.

WILSON: There was a lot of mayonnaise on that, Greg. I’m not sure what Matt wants. He wants less spending. He wants more spending. He doesn’t like inflation. He hasn’t explained why the highest quarter of inflation was under the government that he was a part of, or how it was that we inherited 6 per cent and it’s now 3 per cent. The actual improvement to the surplus that we’ve just announced is precisely because there has been less spending, and we are following a government that, of course, tripled the national debt, doubled it before the pandemic occurred. So, we’re not going to be taking advice or criticism from the Coalition on this issue I can tell you.

JENNETT: Well, since Matt’s congratulating you on your elevation to Assistant Minister for Climate and Energy. Why don’t we take you to your very own portfolio now, Josh Wilson. I heard the Prime Minister in the Cabinet Room, while the cameras were allowed in, noted the switch off in the UK of the final coal-fired generator feeding their grid. What he didn’t mention, though, Josh, was that nuclear in that country is at 15 per cent and growing, and gas is at more than 30 per cent right now. Pretty significant omissions, aren’t they?

WILSON: Well, not really. I mean, the Prime Minister was acknowledging that countries around the world are being part of the effort to tackle dangerous climate change, which means reducing emissions. Of course, coal-fired power is the most emissions-intense form of energy generation. It’s coming out in the UK, and it’s coming out in Australia because coal-fired power is coming to the end of its life and it’s not economic to run. The operators are making that decision themselves. Here in Western Australia, we’ll see coal fired power generation come out of the system by 2030. We are moving all the time to deliver new renewable energy, new storage backed up by firming gas-peaking power. That is the pathway to cheaper and cleaner and more sustainable energy that we have control of, and derive significant manufacturing advantages from through our Future Made in Australia program here in this country. I think a lot of people really welcome that. That’s the kind of future they want to be part of.

JENNETT: All right. Matt Canavan, those sort of numbers I quoted from the UK, since the Prime Minister’s sort of holding it up as an exemplar, does that roughly match the Coalition’s plan for nuclear here, that it would be in that ballpark, 15 per cent for Australia’s energy needs?

CANAVAN: We’ll release detailed modelling about the nuclear power plan before the election. I don’t have an exact figure for you on that. I’m sure a figure that the Prime Minister also didn’t mention is, at the same week that the UK announced the closure of its last coal-fired power station, UK Government figures also show that the UK now has the highest electricity prices in the world, in the developed world I should say, just topping Germany. If all this other new energy is so cheap, why is the UK now, the first developed country to move away from coal, facing the highest power prices in the world? And keep in mind, as you were relaying there with your figures, only 43 percent of the UK’s energy comes from renewable energy, today’s lots of other sources. Also, a lot of it comes from biomass, which is another fancy way for wood. So still, actually, a lot of coal fired power stations running in the UK, they just use wood chips from North America. I don’t know if someone can explain to me why it’s green and environmental and good for the planet to cut down trees in North America, ship them on diesel-fuelled vessels across the Atlantic and then burn them in the old coal fired power stations in the UK. It just seems just another example of insanity that we are going through, through this futile pursuit of net zero emissions.

JENNETT: Josh, do you want to buy in on that. I know you’re not responsible. You’re not an Assistant Minister in the UK, but that energy mix, is it really an exemplar for nations like ours?

WILSON: Well, we’re setting our own path, Greg, and I guess the question that Matt didn’t really tackle is about the Coalition’s nuclear policy. It’s funny to hear people say that there will be more detailed modelling. You couldn’t get a less detailed sort of thought bubble than we currently have. We literally know nothing about this fantasy when it comes to nuclear power. We know that there will be seven sites, a couple of them, apparently, will be small modular reactors, which don’t exist anywhere else in the world, but otherwise we don’t know how much they’ll cost, when they’ll be delivered, how much power they will produce, what proportion of our power will be produced by them, which country will build them and operate them here, how we will deal with that kind of vulnerability, considering it’s a technology that will be wholly and solely delivered by a foreign nation, or what we will do with the waste, etc, etc. We’ve been waiting more than 100 days now. It’s the only energy policy they have. The fact that they’ve gotten away with that completely invisible policy to date is pretty astounding.

JENNETT: All right, we do await those details. I’m not sure, even if I ask, that Matt’s going to be able to provide anything that’s missing.

CANAVAN: I’ve got a lot of answers to the questions Josh just asked, but I’m sure you want to move on.

JENNETT: I will. I’m really keen to see those details myself, I must confess, but not sure we’re going to get them here on the program today. Protests, and we’ll go to you first on this, Matt Canavan. Of course, everyone defends the right to free speech and to protest, that’s absolutely fine, but what should happen if someone engaged in public displays of support or sympathy for Hezbollah?

CANAVAN: Well, look, I’m happy for the police to look at this and see whether any laws are broken. I’m a little bit reticent to start jailing people, arresting people for just displaying a sign. Obviously, there are certain symbols like Swastikas and that, that we’ve banned. But where do you end here? I do support people expressing their views, as long as it’s peacefully. Really the test about whether you defend the right of someone’s free speech is to defend those rights of the people that you disagree with. So, I certainly don’t agree with these protesters, and especially don’t agree with any kind of elevation of a listed terrorist organisation. But I mean, what would clamping down actually signify or deliver? I think it would make the situation worse. The best thing is to ostracise these people, to isolate them as extremists and radicals. Especially for Members of Parliament to associate with them, I mean, we still see the Greens political party run sort of shoulder to shoulder, sometimes with these extreme groups. They should condemn them and set them apart from the broad brush of Australian society which finds these views objectionable.

JENNETT: I’m not here to argue on their behalf, but I think at least in the case of Sarah Hanson-Young, she would suggest that that element was infiltrated and unbeknownst to her when she attended one in Adelaide. But Josh Wilson, over legislation, has that happened here? That’s kind of the argument that Matt’s running. We passed these new laws that came into effect at the start of this calendar year that outlaw the display of these items around terrorist organisations. Was that a bridge too far, recognising free speech and the right of assembly?

WILSON: No, look, I think Matt actually expressed the position very well, and I think he and I have similar views on this. Australia is a democratic, peaceful, cohesive, tolerant, multicultural society, and it’s actually an expression of our values that people can come out and engage in peaceful civil activism in support of causes they believe in. Fundamentally, people have been coming out calling for peace and non-violence, supporting what the government position is, which is for a ceasefire in relation to the violence occurring in Lebanon, that has occurred in Gaza, and, of course, the return of the hostages that were taken through the terrorist attack last October. But it’s reasonable to have laws in place that really seek to clamp down on the most divisive kinds of behaviour. Behaviour that effectively becomes an incitement to violence. Australia has taken that approach in the past, and I think that there is a sort of an extreme version of that kind of behaviour that you do want law enforcement to be able to look at. Fundamentally, I’m on the same page as Matt. We are a democratic society where people ought to be able to express their views, even some views that we don’t necessarily agree with. My position, in having enormous respect for those who are part of the cause of peace and non-violence, is if you’re an activist in that cause, then your conduct should be in accordance with those values.

JENNETT: Yeah, and I think even the police have suggested that it’s not just the displaying of the symbol that they look at, they want to look for much more that goes with it. Look a final one, Matt Canavan again, we’ll go to you first of all on this. We’re facing a bit of a situation as the US appears to be moving down this track of banning the importation of vehicles with Chinese made software and hardware. It will potentially put some questions on the Australian Government. Your colleague, Barnaby Joyce seemed to argue in favour of at least examining a similar ban here. What’s your approach to this?

CANAVAN: Well, I’ve got a lot of questions. So, I support an examination, definitely. It was all a bit of a shock to see what the Israeli Defence Force could do with the simple, humble pager, just being technology that’s not exactly Internet 2.0. Imagine what could be done potentially with something a lot larger, like a vehicle, like a home battery, solar panels, even potentially. Look, I think there’s definitely needs to be an examination of what actually is going on here. Other cybersecurity people in industry have called for a similar evaluation. I don’t know the answer. I don’t know what can be done, but we potentially do have a risk, and we should get to the bottom of it.

JENNETT: You’d certainly rely on expert advice. Josh, quick final word from you on that?

WILSON: Yes, look, obviously, security is something you’ve got to take seriously and approach in a sober and reasonable fashion. There’s a there’s a part of that that can be jumping at shadows and sort of verge into the sort of hysterical space a little bit, you want to be wary of that. We have a strong trading relationship with China. We all carry around phones, including a phone made by an American manufacturer whose name I won’t mention on the ABC.

CANAVAN: I’ve looked at that, a little bit askance in the last couple of weeks, Josh.

WILSON: But those are made in China too, and as Matt pointed out, sometimes you can lose the wood for the trees here. What happened in Lebanon wasn’t a case of anything that had been manufactured somewhere. It appears that it was seized or intercepted and modified. I think we obviously look at all of these developments carefully and thoughtfully. We’ve added $600 million to improve cyber security and $70 million to improve the way that we approach foreign interference. It isn’t helpful for us to jump from one instance to a wider, kind of broad brushstroke approach to anything and everything that is manufactured over the world and that either we export, or we import. I’m not sure what that would lead to.

JENNETT: Might lead to transport on horseback or something. I don’t know, but we’ll wrap it up there. Josh Wilson, Matt Canavan, really appreciate both of you making some time for us today. Talk again soon.

WILSON: Thanks, Greg. See you, Matt.

CANAVAN: Thanks, Greg.