Interview with Luciana Fraguas, SBS Radio Portuguese

LUCIANA FRAGUAS (HOST): Let's cross to Belém, in Northern Brazil, a city on the edge of the Amazon. Joining us now is Australia's Assistant Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Josh Wilson. Good afternoon, Minister.

JOSH WILSON: Good afternoon and very good to be with you.

FRAGUAS: Before we dive into COP, is this your first time in Brazil and did you get to visit the Amazon?

WILSON: It is my first time in Brazil. Of course, I'm very focused on the work that's happening at COP, but I have had the opportunity to see a little bit of the city and the Amazon River delta, and it's an incredibly impressive part of the world. And being on the edge of the green lung of the Amazon reinforces the importance of the work that is going on here, at Belém, and the leadership of Brazil around the importance of global cooperative action to combat dangerous climate change and to deliver the energy transition in a way that's effective, and fair.

FRAGUAS: I imagine it's a powerful image to see the Amazon, to feel the weather and it should be an experience. And what's the atmosphere like at COP so far? We are now on day two. I believe you finished day two of COP30. What are your key takeaways so far?

WILSON: Well, I was here last week for the Leaders’ Summit part and then of course we're on day two of the COP programme and there is certainly a sense of resolution, there's a sense of energy and I think some optimism but also realism because the multilateral system has taken a few knocks in recent times and we need processes like this to be at their best in all of our interests, to see concerted global action on what is really the biggest challenge we face in the 21st century and more than likely in the 22nd century. 

But President Lula spoke very impressively and forcefully in the Leaders’ Summit part of the programme and some of the plenary contributions, including from leaders in the Pacific, have reinforced the urgent need for us to keep going forward, decarbonising, reducing emissions, controlling temperature to make sure that we have a safe climate and a safe planet, and of course to do that by the energy transition by investing in renewables and clean industry technology, but making sure that as we do that we bring everybody along because some of the communities that are most affected by climate change are the ones that have contributed least to it and they're also communities that face significant development challenges. 

And that's true about the Pacific and that's why obviously as we participate wholeheartedly in COP30, we are also making an argument for seeing COP31 come to the Pacific to be shared in partnership between Australia and Pacific nations.

FRAGUAS: You've been in meetings with other leaders, the Brazilian President, Lula, Keir Starmer and Emmanuel Macron. How can we act despite the complete withdrawal of the United States from these conversations?

WILSON: Well, we need to remember that these kinds of efforts don't rest on any single nation. Obviously, they work best if everyone is part of it. And it would make a big difference if the United States had continued, as it has done in the past, both to contribute to the work and to be a beneficiary of it. But we know that there are ups and downs in every journey. 

There are bumps along the road and we have to take those in our stride. And there is a lot of enthusiasm, energy, commitment, problem solving, focus across the global community and the global north and the global south, as we say. And there are lots of leaders that are making that point in no uncertain terms, as well as other kinds of representatives, ministerial representatives like myself and ambassadors and others. And because that's the nature of the COP, that it's not just about government representatives, civil society, you know, environmental and energy groups and groups representing First Nations interests and people wanting to see continued work on gender equality. 

You know, all of those voices are here. And I've had some fantastic roundtable meetings with First Nations representatives, with young Australians, with civil society to hear from them about their priorities, their work here and what they would like to see if we're successful in bringing COP31 to the blue Pacific continent.

FRAGUAS: Australia is competing with Türkiye. How is that competition going? Have you spoken to the Turkish delegation? And when will we know who gets to host COP31?

WILSON: Well, we hopefully will know by the end of this process. We would love that issue to be resolved as soon as possible. But these things can take time and ultimately, it's a sort of a consensus decision rather than having a particular mechanism or a vote. 

The Australian Pavilion and the Turkish Pavilion are side by side and we are a good friend to Türkiye and we understand why they've wanted to be part of this process. What we have done with the Pacific, we believe, is a convincing, compelling argument for why the world needs to come and understand the climate challenges in our part of the world. Go from the green lungs of the Amazon to the blue lungs of the Pacific. And we've got very strong support from across the global community for that proposition. 

But it's ultimately a good faith and good will process. That's how we've conducted ourselves, respecting Türkiye’s interest of course, but hoping that we can come to a resolution that will see the continued momentum and stability of this process because that's what the world needs from COP to COP.

FRAGUAS: When you say we will know at the end of this process, which process? At the end of COP?

WILSON: Yes, at the end of COP.

FRAGUAS: Two weeks' time and there is no voting. The selection process is just a consensus.

WILSON: The way that COP has worked is that different regional groups take turns so that we see the COP being hosted in different parts of the world. It's the time of the group that Australia is part of. And we have very strong support because the case for bringing the world to the Pacific, it would be the first partnership of this kind between Australia and the Pacific. 

The case is very strong. The feedback we get is very, very positive. But the way that the decision is made involves consensus through a good will and good spirit form of engagement. And that's how we will continue to approach it, putting our best foot forward. We think it's the responsible thing to do. 

We know that our Pacific family are very committed to the value of bringing the world to our part of the planet and we think it's the responsible thing for Australia to do. And we believe really that it's in our national interest. I mean we have a strong reason to want to see effective climate action, and we have a very, very strong interest in the energy transition that has taken such big steps forward over the last three and a half years of the Albanese Government.

FRAGUAS: The Amazon is central to Indigenous climate action. If COP31 happens here in the Pacific, in Australia, how important is it for Australia to include Indigenous voices? How inspired are you by COP30 in the Amazon?

WILSON: Well, it is inspirational. The Amazon is one of the great natural features of the Earth. It makes such a beneficial contribution to biodiversity, to the creation of oxygen and the health of our planet. It is a wonder of the world and it's a privilege to be here and be able to experience it directly. Because as much as you read about things or you see a fantastic documentary about a wonder like the Amazon, being proximate to it is something different again. 

So we do take that inspiration and you're right to say that part of Brazil's leadership and focus has drawn strength from its Indigenous traditions and we believe that that First Nations aspect of our life in Australia but also the life of the Pacific family is one of the really strong arguments for bringing the world to our part of the planet. I had a great roundtable with First Nations representatives who emphasised that to me, said that they are supportive of seeing the COP in Adelaide next year and talking about the kinds of things that they want to showcase because we do have some examples. 

As the Assistant Minister responsible for the Savanna Fire Burning ACCU method which has seen the practice of cool-temperature pattern burns by First Nations organisations in Northern Australia that have been remarkably effective in reducing emission abatements through large hot fires and they've also been effective in sequestering carbon and delivering biodiversity outcomes, as well. So, we think that there are some aspects of our First Nations culture and its many thousands of years of demonstrated sustainability practice that would be a feature of a COP in partnership between Australia and the Pacific.

FRAGUAS: We have your delegation there and I believe Minister Chris Bowen is also going to the Amazon next week. Why isn’t Prime Minister Anthony Albanese attending the event? Why is he not there?

WILSON: Well sure, as you can imagine and your listeners would imagine, the Prime Minister has a busy schedule at the best of times and he's done some very important work on Australia's behalf in a number of different international forums in recent times. 

There are some leaders who are able to attend COP. But in many cases the involvement of the delegations is led by a Minister, in some cases even by an ambassador or another kind of representative. The way that Australia approaches COP30, this COP, is similar to how we participated very effectively last year at COP29 in Azerbaijan. 

I'm here in the first week and then Minister Bowen, the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, will come in the second week which is when a lot of the COP30 agenda negotiations really get worked out. And Minister Bowen played an important role in helping to ensure that the last COP actually delivered on a new global finance commitment or mechanism and I know that he will be looking forward to getting over here in a few days’ time and picking up that work again. 

Just as I've been privileged to support our delegation here and engage with other delegations and ministerial representatives over the last four or five days. That's entirely the way that we've approached this in the past. And of course, the sort of contact between Australia and Türkiye over recent months continues to occur between leaders and senior ministers like Minister Bowen and our Foreign Minister, as we seek in a good will and good faith fashion to resolve the issue of who has the responsibility, the stewardship of hosting COP31.

FRAGUAS: You are in Brazil. Australia and Brazil are two giants of the global South. What can we learn from each other? We are working together on clean energy and biodiversity both. Over 80% of Brazil's power comes from renewables, largely led by its extensive hydropower industry. What can we learn from each other? Are there any agreements, projects of working together? Maybe a back-to-back COP? How do you see this partnership?

WILSON: It's exactly as you say. I mean we're both very large territorial nations in the Southern Hemisphere. We both have significant strength that comes to us through our First Nations heritage which we need to value and protect and draw upon.

Brazil has shown great leadership as you say, a significant renewable energy producer and it has been a great advocate for concerted action. President Lula has done a really good job in making this the implementation COP. Some are calling it the truth COP, you know, saying it's time for the global community to really focus on the commitments we've made and keep seeing those implemented. We would carry some of those things forward. 

We are also a country that's blessed with renewable energy resources, and we've achieved some remarkable things. We've doubled renewable energy generation in Australia in the last six years, and we'll do that again before 2030. Certainly, our NDC, our commitment to reduce emissions from between 62% and 70% by 2035 and our target of 82% renewables generate a lot of respect when you get together in global gatherings like this one. 

We would love to pick up the important work that is occurring here under the leadership of President Lula and Brazil and carry that forward in a stable sort of forward trajectory way which is what the world needs. And some of the things that they have championed around forests and the protection of forests, the need to look at and integrate our fire landscape management focus on the significance of zero emission liquid fuels. 

You know these are things, imperatives that we share with Brazil and that the Pacific shares with Brazil and hopefully, if things go well in the next couple of weeks, we will get to carry forward the legacy of COP30 into another Southern Hemisphere COP31 in Adelaide.

FRAGUAS: As you mentioned about the NDCs, the Paris Agreement set ambitious goals, but emissions keep rising. What can we do to change ambition into action? We woke up this morning here in Australia, the Liberal Party is meeting, discussing scrapping net zero targets. What is your response to that?

WILSON: Nothing would be more harmful than the approach that the Liberal Party is currently considering. Nothing would be more harmful in terms of our international reputation, our future as a destination for investment, for jobs, for the broader economic, social, environmental wellbeing of Australia. 

I mean everybody the world over knows how real and serious climate change is and how much we need to make a contribution to creating the safest climate that we can through emission reductions. And in Australia, frankly, you know, people have voted with their feet. We're the highest penetration distributed rooftop solar jurisdiction in the world. One in three Australian households have home solar. In my state of Western Australia it's two in five. And now our Cheaper Home Battery program is seeing people take on home storage, as well. 

We know that people want more options when it comes to zero emission vehicles which they didn't have under the previous government. It's important that every country does what it can to tackle what is a global problem of enormous magnitude. Australia certainly has lodged a very ambitious NDC. It's right up there with the target that the European Union has adopted and it's very, very welcome in the global community. Of course, through this process, we're encouraging countries to lodge their NDCs, if they haven't, their commitments to reduce emissions by 2035. 

And we are always an active part of the conversation in saying that the targets are the first step and then implementing the targets are the second step. And that's something that Australia can proudly say that every time we've set a target we've also had the accompanying plan, as we do in this case, the Net Zero Plan across six sectors of our economy that chart the way forward so that we actually deliver on that. 

It is not just important because of the risks that climate change represents to almost every area of our life, but it is also the way that we can benefit from our incredible comparative advantages in this inevitable global transformation to clean energy and clean industries. So, yeah, I think that's well understood actually in the Australian community. And I frankly don't understand why the Liberal Party or the coalition more broadly seems to find itself in this never-ending obsession and death spiral around climate denialism, because it is the denial of the reality, both in terms of the climate and our economic future.

FRAGUAS: Thank you, Assistant Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Josh Wilson, speaking to us from the Amazon. Thank you so much for your time today and good luck.

WILSON: Thank you. Thank you. And thanks for the conversation. Really appreciate it.