Interview with Murray Jones, 4CA AM Cairns

MURRAY JONES (HOST): Well, with the weather we've had the last couple of days, the hot and humid conditions and of course the anniversary of the crossing of the coast of Tropical Cyclone Jasper a year ago today. But of course, most of the impact over the few days following the 13th of December, and of course the rain that was dropped here in the tropical north. So, it's rather timely that my special guest in studio this morning is Josh Wilson MP, Assistant Minister for Climate Change and Energy. Good morning, Josh. How are you? Welcome to Cairns.

JOSH WILSON: Thanks, Murray. It's really good to be here. First time for me to be in Cairns, so it's a privilege. Yeah.

JONES: How did you feel last night when you arrived in the aeroplane and got out? And I tell you what, steamy hot conditions and that crazy thunderstorm as well.

WILSON: Yeah, look, it's a distinctive place. Just flying in, it's a dramatic landscape and yeah, we jumped in the car and the rain started to come down. But I like it. There's a great kind of energy here and it's one of the most beautiful and impressively biodiverse parts of Australia. So, it's definitely sort of ticking one box off the bucket list for me just to get here and spend some time.

JONES: I'm sure you'll be back.

WILSON: Oh, absolutely, yeah.

JONES: And look, you know, such an amazing place to live when you've got, you know, the Great Barrier Reef, which is a treasure, you know, a worldwide treasure, right on our doorstep. You know, I've had a boat for years and spent a lot of time out there myself. Daintree Rainforest. I spent a lot of time through the forest as well. Amazing ecosystem systems. But despite some of the, you know, the naysayers, you know, maybe not so much for the forest, but certainly for the Great Barrier Reef. These things are undeniably under pressure from climate change. Sadly, we're getting a very vocal minority that is still basically, you know, saying that this is a conspiracy of some description. Let's talk about the reality, let's talk about the facts, but most importantly, the investments that we need to make economically to protect some of the areas that we've got. And I believe that's the reason why you're here today.

WILSON: Yeah, I am, Murray. And there's two things going on today. Obviously, the Treasurer and my colleague, Minister Jenny McAllister, who's the Minister for Emergency Management, are making an announcement of $200 million in additional funding, which is in response to and following from TC Jasper. We celebrate, or mark that sombre anniversary of 12 months today. But the work I'm doing here is almost on the other side of that spectrum because it's about climate resilience. So, today I'll be announcing nearly $11 million through the Climate Resilience Grant programme that supports the work of the Torres Strait Northern Peninsula Area Climate Resilience Centre and their steering committee. And that's really about just being realistic about the things that are happening and will continue to happen, making sure that we're adapted to that. In the same way that a householder would say, look, I want to make sure my gutters are clean, I want to make sure that I don't have stuff around that can be picked up and blown somewhere in a cyclone and cause more damage than is necessary. Just those sort of sensible things as we anticipate the climate-related impacts like sea level rises and hotter weather and more intense storms, which people in this part of the world obviously have been experiencing.

JONES: And look, you know, it's undeniable fact that we are having this climate influence. People have said, oh, the climate's always changed, but obviously it's not changed the amount that is changing in recent times. And coming back to what you're talking about, you know, maintaining, spending this money and sure you're talking about some fairly solid dollars, you know, nearly $16 million to support First Nations led climate action here in the tropical north. But at the end of the day the cost of doing nothing is far more. We're seeing that with the impacts of natural disasters that have been happening around the country in the last couple of years.

WILSON: That's absolutely right. And as I say, everyone will have that experience, whether it's their own home or their business operations. If you identify a hazard and you identify a vulnerability and you say, look, if I don't do something about this and a storm comes along, the costs to me personally and to the community more broadly will be much greater than if I identify that and spend a comparatively smaller amount of money in advance to protect our way of life, our assets, our environment, all of those things which are precious to us. And I don't think there's anything particularly radical or strange about that. It frankly is, it is common sense and the Albanese Government wants to back in that work and we want to do it on the ground responding to the sort of important local knowledge and experience of people in all of the different parts of Australia, including obviously in Far North Queensland.

JONES: It's backed by science and at the end of the day the environment is so important and particularly economically. But yeah, it really surprises me that a lot of people are still in denial about this. So, great to hear that this money is being put forward to something that is really important. You know, sea level rises, despite what a minority are saying, you know, the sea's not a petri dish, there's sea level rises that are occurring right across the world having impact. So, obviously, you know, further north in our part of the world, it is important to do something about this.

WILSON: Yeah, look, the evidence is there and you can see it in lots of different measures. Coastal erosion is increasing in different parts of the Australian environment. And where you have low lying island communities, which is the case in the Torres Strait and Northern Peninsula area, they are particularly vulnerable, just as our Pacific family, Pacific island nations are particularly vulnerable. So, we've got to be realistic about what is occurring and particularly what is coming and try and get in front of it. And that's what this work is really all about.

JONES: Excellent. Well look, a great announcement today with respect to things that are happening here for resilience maintenance, you know, just a little bit of maintenance moving forward. Undoubtedly an investment that is essential. It would be just, you know, crazy to do anything less than this. Let's talk a little bit more about nuclear energy. And with what's come out today, Peter Dutton is basically urging Australians to pump, you know, to support him in pumping $331 billion into the switch over the next 25 years but insisting it's going to cost half of Labor's renewable strategy and actually reduce energy costs. What's your response to what Dutton's come out and said this morning?

WILSON: Oh, look, the idea that Australia would go down that dangerous, risky path is a huge concern, and I think Australians everywhere should be very concerned. All the analysis shows that if we were to go down the path of an old technology – nuclear has been around for 70 years, it is the most expensive form of new energy generation. That is the case right around the globe. It's a technology that's in decline. It peaked as a proportion of global energy in 1996. The number of reactors peaked in 2002. Last year the world added 460 gigawatts of new renewables and nuclear went back minus one. So, it's a technology that's been around for a long time. Some countries have made use of it, notwithstanding the fact that it is the most expensive form of nuclear energy. But for Australia to go down that path would mean $1,200 in additional per household and hundreds of billions of dollars out of taxpayers’ funds because it's uncommercial. It's uninsurable. Peter Dutton's acknowledged that it will be entirely paid for by government, which means out of the pockets of Australian taxpayers. And you take that money, hundreds of billions of dollars out of government's capacity to invest in pensions, health, education, the NDIS, community infrastructure, all of those things, it would be utter madness. And it has nothing when we're facing the serious challenge of making an energy transformation. Not least because there is just no way that you would get a single watt of nuclear energy inside of 15 to 20 years. And we've got to do a lot more to deal with the energy challenges that we have. Particularly with coal-fired power coming to an end of life as a result of decisions by the private coal-fired power operators themselves. The idea that we would suddenly put all the money on this ludicrous bet, all of Australia's taxpayers’ money on this ludicrous bet about the most expensive form of nuclear energy at some time in the distant future, you know, it's honestly Murray, in all my time in politics, it would have to be the nuttiest proposition I've ever seen.

JONES: Wow, strong words. What about the transmission? One of the issues that continues to come up, and I think it's a fair argument, is that where a lot of the renewables are actually being generated, obviously we don't have the infrastructure to get them into the main grid. One of the things that Dutton said in the last 24 hours or so is that with his plan with nuclear we use existing transmission lines instead of the cost that we've got moving forward of actually establishing some of those additional transmission lines for renewables.

WILSON: Well, there's a bit of a furphy in that, as well. I mean the previous government had advice that said that our grid needed to be upgraded. Infrastructure for electricity transmission is like any kind of infrastructure. You can't build a road and expect that in 50, 60, 70, 80 years it's just as good as when you first built it. A lot of our electricity transmission lines, and the system as a whole, is now very old and there's been underinvestment in that. So, the fact is that some of the work needed to upgrade our grid and transmission system has to happen under any scenario whatsoever. And Peter Dutton's trying to pretend that some of that work only started under this government. As with almost everything that Peter Dutton and Ted O’Brien have said, they sort of make up a kind of an outrageous number and then they make up another number that's a bit smaller and claim that their policy is better. The bottom line is we are investing in 21st century transmission upgrades. And part of that is to enable more of the cheapest kind of new energy into the system, which is renewables backed by storage. And that backed by storage part is important because I know people think, can we really make use of renewable energy that comes from wind and solar and other sources in future? I mean, all the evidence is that, you know, we've gone from 0 to 20% to now close to 40% in the system.

JONES: Yep.

WILSON: And it is increasingly becoming a reliable, cheaper and cleaner form of the energy that we use. And it will also be the basis of Australia's economic future as a sort of an exporter of both clean energy, but more importantly, the products that are zero carbon, like green metals, green aluminium, green hydrogen, the things that the world is crying out for. And that Australia has this incredible comparative.

JONES: Advantage in relation to, and particularly in this part of the world when it comes to some of the rare earths and some of the things that are going to be needed moving forward. Because, you know, regardless of what anyone's saying, we know the way that the rest of the world is going. You got another appointment. We've got a lot of things that we could talk about this morning, but great to have you in this morning. Welcome to the Tropical North. I'm sure you'll be back. Some really important things that we've discussed this morning. Josh Wilson, he is the Minister for Climate Change and Energy. Assistant Minister. Have yourself a wonderful day and thanks for bringing the crew in today. Cheers.

WILSON: Thanks, Murray.